Best bottom End/Quick Spooling Turbo Set-Up

[tdbaugha]

I'd like to start a discussion regarding the best turbo set-up for bottom end power and quick spooling. For me, I love riding in the most technical and steep tree lines I can find - IMO good throttle response/quick spooling/strong bottom end is way more important than pure top end, shoot pulling power. That being said, I can't see Carl's 900 for $6k being worth it at 10k ft. Just not enough top end - so lets keep it to strictly turbo set-ups.

So what gets us this bottom end?

What about turbo sizing?

Type of turbo? Is a comp oilless turbo worth the upgrade over a ball bearing garret or similiar? What about aerocharger?

Motor mods? (changed port timing? more compression?)

I think it's obvious that an external waste gate is a benefit as well as a cold air intake.

Billet compressor wheels are a benefit if properly designed for this application in conjunction with the rest of the turbo size, yes?

Vi-Pec? Boost-it?

Intercooler? Water to Air, Air to Air, none?

Fuel? (Race gas plus high compression head vs pump gas at the same boost)



Some thoughts I had while weighing the pros and cons of each kit:

Comp oilless turbo (not sure on sizing), External waste gate, water to air intercooler, lowered port timing, higher compression head, and to tie all these together a Vi-Pec. With this set-up, I believe the Vi-Pec would almost be needed to make it run well. With the lowered port timing, high compression head, and water to air intercooler, you could add timing in the bottom end without having DET issues and then after the quick spooling Comp turbo starts making boost, back the timing off.

Thoughts?

 

[MotoXTurbo9]

Also.. clutching will really play a big part in engine/turbo/transient response/seat of the pants feel and how the sled comes onto boost..

 

[Iceman56]

Great topic!! interested in hearing everyone's thoughts... Really interested to here everyone's thoughts on turbo head and compression. Hopefully it doesn't end up being a nut swinging contest for whatever brand everyone rides like it usually does....
I'll post some of my opinions later when I have more time

 

[sledder22]

This is a great thread!!! Im strictly a tree riding technical boondocker, but at the same time wanted more power for the open hills and longer runs... A turbo never worked for me because of the lag and the lack of throttle response.... Untill this year. I have made a believer out of all my skidoo riding buddies (I was die hard doo till this year) The turbo performance kit with the vipec... has the same throttle response as a stock sled and then arm jerking power when you need it. Thats my thoughts. Take it for what its worth. I recomend riding one before you buy one to see what your gettin yourself into for the money... You wont be disappointed with the results.

 

[friscospices.com]

I always thought if a guy did higher compression and run lower boost with a mix of race gase it woud be the best set up. I cant wait til the new Silber kit comes out with there new kit it seems to run just like a stocker on the bottom and mid cruise but packs the punch up top.

 

[TheBreeze]

Specifically regarding compression, I have seen it play a MAJOR role in low end response / spool time.

I also agree with frisco, that a higher compression, low boost setup would be a solid setup for the type of riding you do.

Also, with higher boost, comes heavier mag weights, and the result is a softer bottom end without also raising engagement speeds.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

better designed head. the compression isnt terribly high, its is just very prone to det. a proper t-stat so when you get a little warm it doesnt pour fuel and pull timing making it goat(read, consistency)

A properly sized turbo, big *** airbox, externally gated, and you got a recipe for success, you wont need to pull fuel on the bottom, you can just add fuel for boost on the top end and smoke all your buddies and have a simple to tune, fun to ride sled.

 

[St0rm77]

i'm running a BD 2860RS turbo setup with intercooler(A/A), cut 50/50 108 race and premium at 6500-8500 feet, got 75 grams in the primary, not sure what springs mind you, or helix. that being said, with the electronic boost control, hits like stock (to me) in the bottom, then hang on when the boost spools.
thats my 2 cents!
ooops, for the questions, i guess i should state that i am running the MTNTK fix kit ( so i believe slightly higher than stock compression), and i have a goodwin performance clutch setup (they put it together , i just stuck it in)

 

[Jimb]

I'd say phone bd, silber, boost it etc and ask them for an opinion but from what I've learned the gtx2863 is a preferred unit because of the higher quality lighter internals spin up faster than a 2860, thus better throttle response less lag and more efficient.

 

[Muldonc]

Running an HM w/ Vipec at about 7lbs of boost (gauge says 6) and so far it does what I like to do. Here is a vid of low to mid throttle boondocking. We rode in trees like this for an hour to get to where we wanted to get. Did a similar ride in 2ft of fresh snow earlier this year and ran great, throttle is there when you need it. No temp issues in this snow?

http://youtu.be/uyWJ3RpuqjE

 

[Muldonc]

Running an HM w/ Vipec at about 7lbs of boost (gauge says 6) and so far it does what I like to do.

Should have mentioned that I have the full HM 240hp kit in the sled including the EBC. HM added the low boost mapping for me. Not much involved in switching between HP.

 

[Iceman56]

I would say external gate, light weight billet compressor wheel, good tunning, clutching, and smaller turbo are all gonna help spool, although I don't think you want to go smaller than a 2860 sized turbo..

Also I think the shorter more free flowing intercooler piping the better spool up (one thing I don't like about the HM turbo intercooling setup).

You would also think that no intercooler would have to be better spooling wouldn't you? Less restriction, don't have to pressurize the whole intercooler everytime the BOV dumps the air.

Also Push Turbo's TBBT has to help on and off throttle in the trees since your not dumping all your compressed air with the BOV all the time.

What about airbox design? Regular big air box or tubular piping like BD and Silber? I would think the Tubular piping would be would be better, less restrictive, don't have to pressurize the whole air box.

I am in the same boat, every two stroke turbo I have rode has bad lag IMO and not fun to ride.
That being said I ended up snowchecking a new Pro and boondocker turbo through VOHK. I did the race setup up with intercooler, tail, GTX2860 (better response then the GTX2863) and all the other bells and whistles. I went this route because I know it will be built, tuned, and clutched the best it can be... I would have loved to try a Push but with only like two kits on the snow this year I wasn't taking the chance...
I am gonna be asking Eric about RKT pistons and turbo head and get his opinion see if helps response.

 

[silberpro]

All your research
All the changes that are coming out, or are out.

Iceman
A disco potatoe (2860 you said you wanted to reduce lag)
A air to air intercooler (interheater)
A Boondocker fuel box (there getting there ,but not there yet)

I am not bashing!!!


Keep researching
Any one of the above items can be replaced by a better component (to reduce lag)
So what are you left with, some silicone hose, and a couple of injectors......

 

[m1kflyingtiger]

I've ridden a push tial tbbt with a bd box on a cat and the only reason I don't have on on the pro is because I haven't gotten any customer ride reports yet. IMO that is the set up to have for quick throttle response, great low end, and turbo power up top. I does work as he has it advertised and in on off throttle the turbo never stops spooling.

As far as air boxes go I would think for lack of turbo lag the smaller the better and the same for intercoolers. The smaller, or none, the better. For spool up and reducing lag that is.

Also as said before in this thread, build a high compression, low boost motor

 

[Iceman56]

All your research
All the changes that are coming out, or are out.

Iceman
A disco potatoe (2860 you said you wanted to reduce lag)
A air to air intercooler (interheater)
A Boondocker fuel box (there getting there ,but not there yet)

I am not bashing!!!


Keep researching
Any one of the above items can be replaced by a better component (to reduce lag)
So what are you left with, some silicone hose, and a couple of injectors......

What do you mean "disco potatoe 2860"?? I said I ordered a GTX2860(billet compressor wheel) and Tial housing and external gate. Name me a better turbo or faster spooling then that.

The air to air with there fan pulling cold air from the headlight delete will not be an innerheater... Yeah I know it's not as good as a w/a but our snow conditions and riding in the trees on and off throttle it should do fine. If I were riding in Revy with 4 ft of powder turning a 174" track and making big long pulls it would be a different story. Neil has stated himself he didn't think his non intercooled kit made any less power then his W/A setup except on really long pulls.

As far as BD's box from what I have been told they have something new and better for next year... From what I was told Silber is not the only one that was testing Bullydogs software last year Not to mention it will be tuned in on the snow by the best guy out there

Trust me I would have loved to have a boost it turbo but its a 25 hour drive for me to his shop one way, so I decided to go with a shop that is only an hour or two away from where I usually ride

As far as you not bashing you've been swinging from boost it's nuts and trying to put down any other kit in about every post you make for some time now

 

[die hard poo]

Im digging the idea of a bigger turbo (2873gtx), more efficient compressor, moves more cfm per pound of boost which allows you have a lower boost pressure and still make the same power. There are lots of threads on which size turbo is best for a 2 stroke 800 in the cat turbo section. Lots of people that seem to have turbo size experience have said the bigger the compressor, less lag and less heat being applied to the air.
IMO I want the most simple turbo system I can get. I learned with my turbo experience the more stuff you have under the hood, the more stuff that will eventually break.

 

[silberpro]

Not Bashing
Pushing Boost it stuff! You Bet!!
I dont have anything to do with Boost-it products, other than I bought some!!
I push is his products because they work!!!!

And I didnt think the thread was called the Best turbo available in my zip code (Even if I lived next door do Dobek I wouldnt buy there box)
Tuned by the best guy out there?????
So BD has a new fueler next year????? Maybe they should tell there dealers!!!!
Water 2 Air We have all the snow in the world
How many boats have you seen with Air 2 Air ????
Think About Why a boat uses water 2 air
Why a car would use air 2 air ????
Why a sled would use snow. Hmmmmm.....
Also its not just for big climbs
If you want your sled running crisp all day no matter where you are riding.
Up hill, down hill or sidehill
The true benefit to a Water 2 Air for our purposes is CONSTANT TEMPERATURE IMO (the throttle is the one on the right)
Do you have any idea, how many guys took those bd air 2 air intercoolers and turned them into water units???? or if they didnt have the $$ they just taking them out.
Disco Potato is the nick name Subaru STI owners group gave it. Could have been the EVO guys not sure. (do more homework)
One thing fore sure.
Careful you dont drink to much Garrett Koolaid
Your choices on products would have been correct 2 YEARS AGO !!!!!!
Sometimes you just have to go the extra DISTANCE!!!!!

 

[gmustangt]

Without getting in to whats wrong with this vs that kit, some other things to consider.

Turbo construction (bearing system etc...)
Turbo AR (backpressure discusions else where..)
Turbo Trim...

 

[tdbaugha]

Turbo AR (backpressure discusions else where..)
Turbo Trim...

These, along with the size, are things that I am interested in learning. There is a good thread over in the Cat section about sizing. Seems like there is more intelligent conversation over there...

Lets keep this on track and productive - not about who's kit is better. We're talking about individual components here...

 

[silberpro]

Hey Guys
I dont want you to think I am turning this into a, my turbo kit is better than yours.
I was more trying to point out to Iceman ,and please chime in guys.
That IMHO I would not use a Air 2 Air cooler
a 2860 or a BD fueler

You want BD, go with it .
But the thread is. Best Btm end quick spooling turbo.

So with the name of thread in mind.
A 2860,
Air 2 Air Intercooler
or a BD box. Are anyone of these components known to be proficient in that area?
I dont think so.......