How did you make the space and where did you put it?
Belt Blower - Opinions needed ASAP!!!
- Thread starter mrquick68
- Start date
How did you make the space and where did you put it?
same place as stock, just cut down the stock piece (the white sleeve on the secondary inner shaft) so the clutches bottomed right before the belt shifted into the helix. haven't had a problem since...
Have you tried a little steeper helix? Straight 36 maybe?
And isn't that green too heavy - especially in 3rd hole? I think it gets too stiff in that position... have you tried it in 1st hole? Green spring and shallow helix aren't that good combination? These are just my toughts so...
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dmkhnr
Well-known member
I have the shift out under control as both times it happened at lower elevation, I was bouncing off the rev limiter in a climb 8500 RPM. The belt never came apart it just chunked a small section where it hit the shaft.
I ran it in the first hole last winter, and ran it in the first hole last week in the deep stuff. I put it in the third hole this winter as I like the hard upshift (thats what she said). Tried a straight 38 helix and it was too steep. I can go back to the first hole but I'll probably have to drop some prim weight.
I ran it in the first hole last winter, and ran it in the first hole last week in the deep stuff. I put it in the third hole this winter as I like the hard upshift (thats what she said). Tried a straight 38 helix and it was too steep. I can go back to the first hole but I'll probably have to drop some prim weight.
G
geo
Well-known member
Highly unlikely to get an overshift on an M, 'cause the primary sheaves won't close enough to allow the belt to the top and your C to C has to be close the way the chassis is designed.
What probably did happen is the belt delamed from the heat from slip (same reason you pull strings) and the wicked backshift your using to make up for the heavy weights in the primary, seperated the top cord, flinging it out the top of the primary and wrapping around the clutches, sending strings and things flying all over the place leaving the bottom half to explode into small pieces of bumpy rubber 'cause it has nothing left to hold it together. Poor little belt.
I've seen that happen since I started sledding, even before the ACT secondaries with the little white spacer. The belt is a set diameter so if the primary can't shift it out the top the secondary can't shift it into the bottom.
I haven't reinstalled the white spacer since '05 ('cause I couldn't figure out it purpose except to stop the primary sheaves from hitting and losing their grip on the belt 'cause the M's are geared so low they needed clutching designed with extra OD) and I try to set a new land speed record almost every ride on one of the many downhills back to the truck (not what M's are built for but one of my thrills LOL). Never overshifted, but have delamed a belt and it was well below top speed.
Look somewhere else for the problem. Maybe stop working one clutch against the other. If you add or subtract a substantial amount of wieght (like 3 or 4 grs.) and don't have a noticable rpm change, then something else is really controlling the rpm. And that's not how it's supposed to work, snowmobile clutching that is.
Geo
What probably did happen is the belt delamed from the heat from slip (same reason you pull strings) and the wicked backshift your using to make up for the heavy weights in the primary, seperated the top cord, flinging it out the top of the primary and wrapping around the clutches, sending strings and things flying all over the place leaving the bottom half to explode into small pieces of bumpy rubber 'cause it has nothing left to hold it together. Poor little belt.
I've seen that happen since I started sledding, even before the ACT secondaries with the little white spacer. The belt is a set diameter so if the primary can't shift it out the top the secondary can't shift it into the bottom.
I haven't reinstalled the white spacer since '05 ('cause I couldn't figure out it purpose except to stop the primary sheaves from hitting and losing their grip on the belt 'cause the M's are geared so low they needed clutching designed with extra OD) and I try to set a new land speed record almost every ride on one of the many downhills back to the truck (not what M's are built for but one of my thrills LOL). Never overshifted, but have delamed a belt and it was well below top speed.
Look somewhere else for the problem. Maybe stop working one clutch against the other. If you add or subtract a substantial amount of wieght (like 3 or 4 grs.) and don't have a noticable rpm change, then something else is really controlling the rpm. And that's not how it's supposed to work, snowmobile clutching that is.
Geo
Any chance you guys pulled your DDrive? I have found that there is some shims under it to keep it level with the motor. If they are crooked you can have this happen.
I have seen them on the bottom two bolts under the drive between the tunnel.
IF you have trimmed .030 off the flat spot of the primary it will shift out all the way. And us low landers pulling alot of tip weight you can pull the belt into the helix with the 10" secondary but the 10.4" is at 3% over drive at full 8.25" of the primary with a 046 belt.
I bet if you put the alignment bar on the top and then the bottom of the secondary you might be crooked.
Don.
I have seen them on the bottom two bolts under the drive between the tunnel.
IF you have trimmed .030 off the flat spot of the primary it will shift out all the way. And us low landers pulling alot of tip weight you can pull the belt into the helix with the 10" secondary but the 10.4" is at 3% over drive at full 8.25" of the primary with a 046 belt.
I bet if you put the alignment bar on the top and then the bottom of the secondary you might be crooked.
Don.
Just had an interesting though. i have to run my deflection adjusted pretty far in to stop the squeal which makes me think maybe my motor is somehow mounted further forward than most??? Top of my belt is flush with secondary sheeves when the deflection is correctly adjusted... i thought it should be sticking out a bit?
I blew a brand new belt in 8 miles of pretty easy trail riding this year. I was about half way into the throttle and hit a really icy patch and BOOM the belt peices everywhere. Clutches were not even WARM when i openned the hood to inspect the damage. It over shifted - the only explanation i can think of.
I blew a brand new belt in 8 miles of pretty easy trail riding this year. I was about half way into the throttle and hit a really icy patch and BOOM the belt peices everywhere. Clutches were not even WARM when i openned the hood to inspect the damage. It over shifted - the only explanation i can think of.
R
RKT
Well-known member
Geo is correct..the over-shift scenario you mention is virtualy impossible.. There is NO NEED for ANY spacer (except to impede performance).. We have all hit ice at one time or another.. NO sceondary will suck the belt.. it just just not going to happen..
If you think you can over shift it.. try it on a jack stand (least load possible).. it will not happen... WHY.. See geos' post..
always nice to point fingers.. but always nicer to have factual data.. not "guessing" when pointing fingers... agreed?
If you think you can over shift it.. try it on a jack stand (least load possible).. it will not happen... WHY.. See geos' post..
always nice to point fingers.. but always nicer to have factual data.. not "guessing" when pointing fingers... agreed?
fair enough and what he is saying makes sense. Please then explain why hitting a patch with basically no load on the track would blow a brand new belt that wasn't even hot (shoot, it was barely even warm!?).
That's why i thought maybe my sled for some reason has more distance between the clutches than others, which would explain why my belt seems to ride lower than some other sleds out there???
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dmkhnr
Well-known member
Ran the M8 in the first hole today 3' of powder. It pulled the 75# weights and I was seeing good track speed in my climbs, alot of long climbs.
Prim/Belt/Second were all hot to touch. I have a mesh hood, side vents.
Put a stock secondary on with a straight 36 and still tached over 8100, however the track speed fell off.
I'm holding the throttle wide open for 60 seconds + on some of these climbs.
Prim/Belt/Second were all hot to touch. I have a mesh hood, side vents.
Put a stock secondary on with a straight 36 and still tached over 8100, however the track speed fell off.
I'm holding the throttle wide open for 60 seconds + on some of these climbs.
I see the same thing as you as far as deflection goes... Have not looked it up but I assume deflection should be 1 1/8" to 1 1/4".
Instead of measuring it I just adjust the BDX adjuster while running until it quits squeeling and it seems loose to me.
My sled is not a belt blower though and I would think that a tight belt would cause the problem you are describing, not a loose belt.
Correct me if I am wrong.
well i checked with dealer and all the 07 and 08 1000s have the top of belt riding even with the sheeves.
i adjust my deflection the same way, on the tight side, just loose enough to stop the squealing...
Are people experiencing the same issues with the torsion springs kits and stock clutching as far as belt life goes? i burned 'em up both ways in about the same amount of time.
Though i haven't tried the stock clutching with the regear yet...
G
geo
Well-known member
* If your belt is squealing at an idle when hot, then your alignment is out.* Deflection is very important to have proper and cool clutching, 'cause the belt needs alittle freedom to release and backshift. Don't try to outsmart the belt manufacturers and OEM engineers. Some times the info on the net ain't right Read your owners manuel. A straight bar ontop the belt JUST enough pressure to take up the slack and about 1.125" deflection. 1" is too little (check in the field when warm, it's tight), 1.375" is just giving up a bit of low gear and top gear, but better than too tight.*After you set your deflection PROPERLY, take the secondary in your hand and rotate it forward a half turn or so, then take a feeler gauge (about .006" minimum) and see if you can insert it from the top (easily, no drag) between the belt and the stationary sheave. If you have this clearance and deflection you'll never squeal at idle and your alignment will be set as best as you can do. If you can't drop in the feeler gauge, shim the secondary out till it can. Then check deflection again, 'cause if you were out in alignment in will loosen up. Then check with feeler gauge again and so on 'till it's all right.
Why the rigamaroll. The ACT secondary sheaves have steep angles and a bit of delection change makes a big difference on the belts alignment to the primary in every gear.
Without proper deflection you can't start to clutch 'cause your belt is being stretched to it's limits every upshift and downshift if too tight and just in the wrong gear if too loose. You also may find your belt sitting higher in the secondary and still have more deflection (free play) than you have now.
Mrquick I've tried to help through our PM's and your moving in the right direction (just not far enough yet). Kudos to you for trying to do it your way but like I said, you have something seriously out in your clutching set-up to blow a new belt in 8 miles of part throttle (almost unbelieveable, but I believe you, unless it was simply a bad belt, .... happens). If you put your sled on a stand (ice??) and do Tetonice tuning it takes a bit of time (scarey) to get the belt to the top of the primary at full throttle. Impossible at part throttle.
Also if your checking for heat do it after a short pull before your temps get equalized ('cause they will). And, Check your primary set-up using a slow roll on to peak r's 'cause any amount of HP will slip that poor little belt to peak r's if you just pin it.
Geo
Why the rigamaroll. The ACT secondary sheaves have steep angles and a bit of delection change makes a big difference on the belts alignment to the primary in every gear.
Without proper deflection you can't start to clutch 'cause your belt is being stretched to it's limits every upshift and downshift if too tight and just in the wrong gear if too loose. You also may find your belt sitting higher in the secondary and still have more deflection (free play) than you have now.
Mrquick I've tried to help through our PM's and your moving in the right direction (just not far enough yet). Kudos to you for trying to do it your way but like I said, you have something seriously out in your clutching set-up to blow a new belt in 8 miles of part throttle (almost unbelieveable, but I believe you, unless it was simply a bad belt, .... happens). If you put your sled on a stand (ice??) and do Tetonice tuning it takes a bit of time (scarey) to get the belt to the top of the primary at full throttle. Impossible at part throttle.
Also if your checking for heat do it after a short pull before your temps get equalized ('cause they will). And, Check your primary set-up using a slow roll on to peak r's 'cause any amount of HP will slip that poor little belt to peak r's if you just pin it.
Geo
belt blower
WOW tons of info.I have a 06 M7 with cutler 1000.It loves belts.I ahve not had a chance to read alll the posts.Can someone give me aheads up on checking alighnment?I have not spun mine on stand,BUT I had the secondary off last night,when I put it back on I noticed the belt was not centered in the primary????
Thanks in aadvance!
Cutler adjustables.10.4 sec torsional conversion s/p green middle hole.
WOW tons of info.I have a 06 M7 with cutler 1000.It loves belts.I ahve not had a chance to read alll the posts.Can someone give me aheads up on checking alighnment?I have not spun mine on stand,BUT I had the secondary off last night,when I put it back on I noticed the belt was not centered in the primary????
Thanks in aadvance!
Cutler adjustables.10.4 sec torsional conversion s/p green middle hole.
the belt blowing at partial throttle (70%?) on ice only happened once? It was on flat trail and i'm not BS'ing. I was as surprised as anyone. As it seemed impossible. The belt just blew everywhere... Weird? I put the stop back in and its never done it since even a WOT throttle 85mph pulls on trail. I'd say bad belt, but there was nice ding in the helix where the belt hit?
Geo - your PMs have been very helpful, no question. and i'll check the deflection again w/ your suggestions. The only time my belt ever squealed at idle was when i set the deflection too tight...
as for my testing RPMs, what you said is correct - when i test i always slow roll into the throttle as that keeps my primary from slipping. It has worked well tp show proper rpm.
I'll double check my deflection again tonight using your method.
I've tried my deflection a few different ways on this sled to see if that's a problem - when its too tight it squeals and when its too loose i get a BANG on engagement... right in the middle seems best, but maybe its off because of aligntment issues?
Geo - your PMs have been very helpful, no question. and i'll check the deflection again w/ your suggestions. The only time my belt ever squealed at idle was when i set the deflection too tight...
as for my testing RPMs, what you said is correct - when i test i always slow roll into the throttle as that keeps my primary from slipping. It has worked well tp show proper rpm.
I'll double check my deflection again tonight using your method.
I've tried my deflection a few different ways on this sled to see if that's a problem - when its too tight it squeals and when its too loose i get a BANG on engagement... right in the middle seems best, but maybe its off because of aligntment issues?
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My M8 has been eating belts since I've owned it, Everything is aligned, deflection good and tried countless combinations of clutching. Some better then others of course, but when it comes down to it... cords keep coming out! My 07' M never had this issue.
I think cat has a casting problem with their primary's, check the sheaves for casting flaws on the top and bottom. My primary had major flaws in it compared to the 07' clutch. With the engine running i filed the top and bottom edges of both sheaves and cleaned them up after with emery cloth. So far no issues since I've done this?? hopefully it works. just a suggestion!
I think cat has a casting problem with their primary's, check the sheaves for casting flaws on the top and bottom. My primary had major flaws in it compared to the 07' clutch. With the engine running i filed the top and bottom edges of both sheaves and cleaned them up after with emery cloth. So far no issues since I've done this?? hopefully it works. just a suggestion!
Could you elaborate on this a little more and maybe post up some pics. If there is indeed merit to what you are saying then this could be an explanation as to why some of these sleds are eating belts and others have no issues. I will take a look at mine tonight but I am not understanding exactly where you are talking about on the sheaves.
On another not I have also wondered if some of these primary's were not balanced properly from the factory as mine seems to wobble quite a bit at idle. Is this normal?
I really do believe this issue with all of these belt eaters is the primary now would somebody please come up with a fix.
There might be a combination of issues for everyone... my primary doesn't wobble at idle!
The imperfections in my primary clutch were located on both sides on the inside sheaves where the belt sits at idle. Under WOT when the clutch closes check the top of your primary sheaves for any imperfections also. Sorry I don't have any pics before I did this. I had a long file and cleaned the clutches up while idling that way it would be symmetrical, if your clutch wobbles I probably wouldn't try this!
Has anyone else done this? I got the idea from others in my area and figured it was worth a try! blowing belts and cutting cords wrapped around my clutches really ticks me off.
I should mention that I also shimmed my secondary "in" from factory as well.
The imperfections in my primary clutch were located on both sides on the inside sheaves where the belt sits at idle. Under WOT when the clutch closes check the top of your primary sheaves for any imperfections also. Sorry I don't have any pics before I did this. I had a long file and cleaned the clutches up while idling that way it would be symmetrical, if your clutch wobbles I probably wouldn't try this!
Has anyone else done this? I got the idea from others in my area and figured it was worth a try! blowing belts and cutting cords wrapped around my clutches really ticks me off.
I should mention that I also shimmed my secondary "in" from factory as well.
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