Avalanche Beacon or Airbag?

[blurredelevens]

Who in the hell sleds and doesn't use a beacon?

Read "The Snowy Torrents" and take note of how many people have died, and how many of those deaths could have been prevented by avi knowledge and use of a beacon.


If you don't use a beacon in avalanche terrain, you're a complete moron.

 

[Blu Du]

I am glad you put this topic up, but let me put up another viewpoint. I have for 2 years tried to convince one group I go west with to buy beacons. I have now convinced 1 other of the roughly 10 to buy one, but like he said "it doesn't really do us any good to be the only 2 in the group with beacons." Because of this we are thinking about buying the packs to take care of ourselves at least. Now if the others would come around we would buy the beacons also, but for now our best bang for the buck might be the avy pack.

What does everyone think does this make sense?

Please don't flame me to put more pressure on the others in the group, and to not ride with them, I know the arguments, but some things are just the way they are. Believe me I will keep the pressure on, but will shouldn't I at least do whatever I can to make sure I get home to my family?

same here. just found some different people to go with. you should have a beacon to find other people that aren't in your group if you come up to a slide. i would opt for a bag first if none of my buddies would get a beacon. i've been out west 21 times since 1990 and never gave it much thought besides when were climbing and say i wonder if this would ever slide. the answer from every one in the group is i don't think so. so this year after have a friend that i have ridden with was in a avy (i wasn't there for that ride)he was burried but ended up on top at the end. this hill we have climbed many times. i went to duffys avy class, orede a beacon, and will order a pack in 2 weeks.

 

[NWGooser]

A pack greatly increases YOUR odds of survival. I does nothing to increase somebody elses. Tough choice but it has to be made. It always boggles my mind how difficult it is to get other people to buy beacons. Especially as we live and ride in the west. I always here people say, "We don't ride in avy terrain." If they don't go to class and educate themselves, how in the heck can they say that?

Great thread. I wish people would get more involved in avy awareness.

 

[akstormin]

Just a quick thought for Yammi4ever, lots of places out west will rent out beacons for short term use. I know here in AK you can rent them right from REI for pretty cheap. At least maybe this way you could get some of your buddies to wear them on the trips out west. Be sure to do a quick lesson and practice on how to use them. Pretty easy just bury a beacon next to the parking lot and have them go find it. Of course nothing beats going to school and practicing a lot, but in the real world not everyone is going to do that. Good Luck

 

[Kevco]

Beacon no ques. Air bags Ive seen avys that a airbag wouldnt do ya much good. Chunks of ice as big as a small house. Good luck and be safe or smart which ever comes first.

 

[sled-fiend]

Beacon no ques. Air bags Ive seen avys that a airbag wouldnt do ya much good. Chunks of ice as big as a small house. Good luck and be safe or smart which ever comes first.

If an airbag would'nt do ya much good in that situation how would a beacon do ya any better? They both save lives period.

 

[XC700116]

One other thought for Yammi4ever. When I lived in MN and started going out to Island Park, ID for a week at a shot. Our group would borrow beacons from another group in our home town. Give each guy a case of beer for the trouble and then practiced with them before we even left (waist high hay fields work pretty good as a substitute for snow when there is none) and then did a check and short practice each morning before we rode. Do what you can and maybe it will save you butt.

 

[ericbigbore]

If you don't have a beacon your not riding with me or anyone else I know.

The question should be beacon or organ doner?

 

[Coxy]

I don't leave the truck without my beacon, and shovel/probe in my pack. Just doesnt feel right.

 

[WARY]

Kevco is probably right about not surviving slides with “chunks of ice as big as a small house” crashing down the hill, but those types of avalanches are created by the cornice falling from the very top of the mountain. That huge piece of snow was carried all the way down the mountain by the slide and wasn’t destroyed. Most slides involving snowmobilers are not cornice drops, but big slab avalanches started by the victim’s activity on the hill, be it snowmachining or boarding or skiing. Most of the time you don’t have to worry about being crushed by a massive building sized piece of snow.

The slab and cornice drop slides can be the same size though, and everybody fears taking the long ride on a major class 2 or class 3 slide. We all assume this is impossible to survive, and that if the slide goes big we are toast. But our research suggests that this is not necessarily true. Each year we create 6 to 20 avalanches in order to test avalanche flotation devices, and the ideal test avalanche for us is a class 2 slide that runs 1000 to 2000 feet in length. Each time we test flotation devices they are visible on the surface of the avalanche after the slide, usually to one side and about half way up the hill. Most of the time we find full human sized test dummies partially exposed above the surface of the snow. Every once in awhile an avalanche will go bigger than expected on us, and run long and wide. These are the slides that often go off cliffs and into trees, and in these slides we find many of the flotation devices shredded and deflated and buried with the victim. But often enough we find the test dummies partially exposed above the surface and attached to fully inflated flotation devices.

In one very cool test avalanche last year in British Columbia the slide went big and long, and ended up taking the test dummy for a mile long ride down the mountain. We estimate the dummy reached speeds of 110 to 120 miles an hour. The dummy entered the slab avalanche and was immediately engulfed by the leading edge of the slide and disappeared from view. Several seconds later the dummy and the bright red flotation device appeared slightly behind the leading edge and began to slow down as the avalanche started to pull ahead. The dummy could be seen sliding down the entire mountain in a seated position, facing uphill. After the avalanche the dummy sat on top of the snow looking uphill as though he was sitting in his favorite chair watching a football game.

The point being that you can ride out ANY avalanche. You always have a chance, and your chances are better if you have a flotation device and a beacon.

 

[PassRev]

Beacon > shovel > probe > pack + level 1 class
Followed by practice with friends.

 

[pernikm]

Beacon, probes, shovel (I am not sure I would trust a plastic one in the hard debris) and training, training, training...but I am sure interested in those packs....oh and the avalache report...

Karl

 

[GODEEP]

If an airbag would'nt do ya much good in that situation how would a beacon do ya any better? They both save lives period.

Someone would atleast be able to find you, OR you would be able to help search for someone involved.
Lets say some large icy piece busts your air bag and your covered but able to breath for some short time. Still alive, but unable to yell or dig yourself out, just sitting there waiting to die. nobody can see you as well as search for you. you are screwed. Play that situation out with a beacon.


I know I'd rather be riding with a group of guys with beacons than air bags.

I say beacon due to all the advantages of others being able to help search.

I wouldnt feel comfortable without a beacon and wearing just an avy bag system.

 

[avalanchesafety.ca]

A vote for an airbag and here is why

I use both and have done for the past four years. I sell all avalanche safety equipment, am a distributor for snowpulse airbags, a professional member of the Canadian Avalanche Association, and teach loads of avalanche courses.

This is purely my opinion but if i really had to choose for me it would be a no brainer, and i would go for the airbag. The reason is simple; if i am caught in an avalanche i have a way better chance of living by having an airbag on than i do with a beacon.

I have done a lot of research into airbags and beacons and i will give you a quick run down from the Time is Life DVD, which is edited and approved by the International Commission of Alpine Rescue. ICAR – MEDCOM, CISA-IKAR Avalanche Commission. SWISS Stats. 2005.

They examined 2000 Avalanche incidents and found the following:

"Overall there was a 22% mortality rate.
- Only 4.4% of people who were not buried, or only partially buried died!
- 51.3% chance of death for people who were completely buried.

1991-2004: 77 reports of airbag inflation.
76 Survived, 1 Died
10 completely buried but airbags were visible on the surface.
9 cases where airbags were not deployed.

The same avalanches caught 25 people who were not wearing airbags. Of these 12 were completely buried, 9 were found dead.

Airbags lowered the probability of a complete burial from 47.1% to 13% and the mortality rate 35.3% to 1.3%!

ICAR conclusion : Statistical evidence for airbags is good to very good. “It is the device of choice”.

Point of Interest: Same study revealed transceivers reduced the median burial time 170-20 minutes, but the mortality rate only 79% to 50%!"


The point is if you are buried your chances are not great with or without a beacon. I believe these stats are a little off now (likely a slightly better chance for a buried vicitm) as beacon technology gets better and more importantly people get better at using them. We are also now greatly improving shovelling techniques which can make up a lot of time.

If the experts at ICAR who spend their lives looking at this stuff believe that an airbag is the "device of choice", i will take their word for it. As well i have seen the videos of the airbag testing and done some myself and it is amazing at how effective they are. There seems to be a bit of a myth out there about how effective beacons are. Yes they help, but not really that much. If you are deeply buried you are still screwed. If i had to guess i would say that the majority of avalanche victims here in Canada were wearing a beacon, that is just a hunch.

As a final summary, use all the equipment, practice with it, and take an avalanche skills training course if you haven't done so in the last couple of years to keep up to date on all the technology changes and new rescue techniques. If you can afford to sled my guess is that you can afford the safety equipment.

 

[POWDER LORD]

How selfish are these people asking?

If they are asking I would not be riding with them. BEacon all the way. It save both your asses when **** goes wrong. The airbag only if you see it coming and as said already only 98% of the time and there are still trees that can kills as well as rocks in the slides.

Probes take time to recover a body but they do work. You should be packing these too.

 

[sled-fiend]

Someone would atleast be able to find you, OR you would be able to help search for someone involved.
Lets say some large icy piece busts your air bag and your covered but able to breath for some short time. Still alive, but unable to yell or dig yourself out, just sitting there waiting to die. nobody can see you as well as search for you. you are screwed. Play that situation out with a beacon.


I know I'd rather be riding with a group of guys with beacons than air bags.

I say beacon due to all the advantages of others being able to help search.

I wouldnt feel comfortable without a beacon and wearing just an avy bag system.

What I meant was if you were to get nailed by a piece of ice the size of a house as qouted above you would probably be toast either way. I ride with a beacon as well as bring a spare every ride in case someone forgets theirs. This will be my first year with an ABS bag. Protect yourself and others, if possible ride w/ both. Good information avalanchesafety and Wari, thanks for posting.

 

[Clarke673]

A person really shouldn't have to make that choice. The only reason there is a question is because avalanche flotation devices are all overly expensive. The ideal avalanche flotation system should cost about the same as a good beacon, and not 2 or 3 times as much. Avalanche flotation devices are overpriced because they are made in Europe. It's expensive to manufacture in Europe, and when you add the cost of duty and the cost of shipping the devices to North America, the cost for the average Joe becomes too much.

Um no. Mostly they are being greedy. I ride alone and i am going to try and purchase a pack. BUT i will be rocking the same old BCA avy beacon i have worn for the last 7 years.

BTW, if i do buy a flotation device and i die from an avy. I am so punching all of you in the nuts in the afterlife!

 

[SnowBigDeal]

This is purely my opinion but if i really had to choose for me it would be a no brainer, and i would go for the airbag. The reason is simple; if i am caught in an avalanche i have a way better chance of living by having an airbag on than i do with a beacon.

This is where we have a different opinion. If everything in life were always about me, then an airbag would be the way to go. However, what am I saying about how much I value the lives of those I ride with if I choose an airbag over a beacon? I agree that an airbag will be more effective in saving my own life, but in order to save others in your group or even others that aren't in your group, you need to have a beacon! Practice with your beacon so that it becomes second nature.
Again, my preference is to ride with both a beacon and an airbag, but if I HAD to chose between purchasing one or the other, it would be a beacon.

 

[ericbigbore]

One thing that pi$$es me off about the Air bag debate is, as soon as you say the prices are still a joke and I will outfit me and my family with this life saving equipement when they come down to reality, you get the guilt trip from the sellers.

"you can mod your sleds but not buy an air bag?" or "how much is you or your kids life worth?"

I say the guilt trip is on the manufacture for fleecing us with huge costs for a simple design that doesnt cost $1200 or even $900 to make!!!

A beacon is $200 bucks and some shops like Cascade Play Time in WA sell them for cost to keep their valued customers walking in the door. Knowledge and backcountry experance is free and avy training is about $100 bucks.

The best way to stay safe and alive is to stay out of sketchy conditions and don't take dumb risks, take lots of training, teach it, use it, and practice it!!!

I ride between 60 and 80 days a year in the backcountry and come from an extreem skiing backround and have seen it all and 90% (not everyone) of the people who get pumbled and die by avy's are taking dumb risks IMO!

I would love to have one of these packs and plan on buying them when the come down to around $500 and they will! Peace - Eric

 

[SHEFFY40]

Beacon=No Decision.....IMO...if you have to ask this stupid question you have no business being in the backcountry!!!!