Avalanche Air Brake, good or bad idea?

[WARY]

Hello everyone,

Some of you may have seen our avalanche air bag tests here on the forum and we have a question for you about air brakes.

Several years ago when pro skier Doug Coombs was killed in a fall, a discussion began here in our lab as to whether an air brake might have made a difference.

When we say air brake we are talking about a small nylon wing with the minimal amount of lanyards, each about 3 feet long, say a meter or more. Something that would slow your decent down the mountain in a fall.

The problem with an air brake is getting it out there in time; deploying it quickly. The plan is to have our avalanche air bag throw the air brake into the air. The air bag pops out of the vest in a fraction of a second and then fully inflates over the next few seconds. We think that the initial burst of the air bag could be used to deploy a properly positioned air brake, and that the air brake could be tethered to the avalanche air bag, which is tethered to the victim.

One of the problems we have talked about so far would be the lanyards getting wrapped around the victim and making things worse.

What are your opinions of this idea? Any suggestions from people with parachute experience, or anyone who has taken a good fall and thinks the device would have helped or hurt their situation would be helpful.

We have talked the idea over with a professional snowmobile rider and he is keen on the idea as these riders often fall off their machines when making a turn on a hill. When we mentioned that if the lanyards got tangled up in a cartwheeling snowmobile he would be dragged to his death he told us that the machines often preceded the rider down the mountain in a fall and that slowing his own fall downhill would be worth the risk. He works with his snowmobile 12 months a year for a snowmobile manufacturer, and he told us there are several times a year he would pull the rip cord on an air brake.

Is this a good idea or a bad one? What do you think?

 

[the fix-it guy]

So would the air brake and air bag always deploy together or could they be trigged separately?

 

[Tec]

Didn't Doug die from head and neck injury's? Sounds like a snowpulse bag could have saved his life, if he could have deployed it as he was falling.

Air brake sounds cool, but really! Unless your hucking 100' cliffs? I can't see a benefit for 99% of SW riders.

 

[Trashy]

As a drag racer who relies on a chute to slow his car I have often wondered if they would have any merit in an avy.
Getting tangled could certainly be an issue tho. Even in a "simple" situation like a straight run down the racetrack the dual-chute cars can have issues with their parachutes getting tangled and not blossoming.
I may be wrong but if you could get one to work in an avy I have the hunch that it would slow you down enough that you may get left behind as the avy continues down the slope, an that alone would reduce the risk of getting buried I would think, no?
I can recall how many people scoffed at the idea of an airbag when they were first introduced, but now they are commonplace. So in that regards can we truly overlook any idea until it is tested and condemned?

 

[snowww1]

Interesting idea. I feel it's worth a try to do some testing and see how effective it is. Mike Duffy

 

[WARY]

working on the prototype for testing.

Square brake or round brake?

 

[Trashy]

Gotta try both.

Not like anyone here has any experience with this. That's the joy of being the inventor!

 

[twincam88]

not sure if i understand. you deploy it if you fall of a cliff or in an avy? if you fall off a cliff i dont think a 3 foot wing span will slow you enough. if your in an avy(i have never been in one) do you not cartwheel and roll? i think you would get tangled and how exactly would it work? im all about saftey gear and hope this will make things a little safer. good luck

 

[winter brew]

Interesting idea. Just thinking out loud.....if you have a airbag deployed and are going for a big ride at or near the surface, at a high enough speed for a "chute" to be able to slow your speed, wouldn't this possibly increase your chances of burial or physical trauma as your speed is slower than that of the surrounding snow?....if that makes sense?

 

[WARY]

We are thinking that this would be an additional item that a skier/boarder or snowmobiler would have affixed to their avalanche airbag only if they were on steep mountainsides where a fall could be potentially fatal. We are thinking that this is something for the extreme mountain sportsperson only, something that would probably be more useful in the Alps than the Rockies. The air brake is more about slowing a fall than having any effect in a slide.

However, it must work in an avalanche as well as in a fall or it’s a deal breaker.

If the user is in an avalanche we are assuming it is an avalanche the victim has started, not an avalanche slamming into someone at full speed. Our second assumption is that the person in the starting zone of the avalanche is not immediately cartwheeling down the mountain, but instead there are a few precious seconds when the person may still be standing on their skis or snowboard or riding their snowmachine. This is when we anticipate the air brake may be useful, at the very beginning of the slide, uphill of the moving snow inside the avalanche.

The experiment we will need to set up to test this theory will be very difficult to produce. It would require placing our test dummy in the starting zone and remotely triggering the airbag as the avalanche begins. We have failed at remote triggering in the past in a test near Valdez, Alaska, so we are a little leery to say the least. Sure, there is a lot of remote control work going on, but the mountains are tricky and the blast from the bombs may be interfering with the radio waves for all we know.

What we are planning for is a non-avalanche test using a human tester. As mentioned we have a pro-snowmobile rider who has expressed interest in helping out, and if we feel it can be done safely we will give that a try first.

 

[RMK SeVeN]

It seems to me that if this was applied in the correct scenario it could be very beneficial. I would think the chances of a sledder/skier ending up in this scenario are fairly slim, at least a sledder. I would agree that more times than not the avy starts slow and if the person has the foresight to pull the cord it may help him/her. Also seems that once those few seconds(if that) are over then they are tumbling with cords and a chute attached to them, which is worse off then just tumbling.

For certain applications I see it working but for the average slide I can only see it causing more damage(possibly). I would be very interested in seeing one in action though.

 

[twincam88]

i get what your saying. if you can pull the air brake while the avy just started. it will slow you down while the avy is speeding up. thus leaving you sliding down the hill after the avy.......thats a good idea i hope it works!! keep us posted!!

 

[WARY]

We are thinking of really short lanyards, and very few of them. So if you deployed the system on dry land (standing in your kitchen) the air bag fully inflated has an outside edge (where the lanyards would be attached) that sits shoulder high and about 2 feet off of the user's shoulders. The air brake would be hanging off the ground, we imagine right about at the user's knees or slightly lower. We think that this will prevent the user's legs from becoming entangled, but not if the person's feet are being slamded into their back in a full on tuck and roll.

 

[Tonysnoo]

I'm curious about the dynamics of an avy. I hear about the gust or air displacement that hits before the snow.

I guess I'm wondering if the gust would propel the air brake ahead or into the air? Would that be bad or good?

Does snow in an avy flow like water? If so, what happens to a person that is floating in a river down stream with a rope or blanket or tube behind him. Does the current just push the blanket or tube up to the peson or does it act like a sea anchor?

I wonder what would happen if you deployed the bag/brake and were still on the sled trying to get away?

Thanks guys for again thinking out side the box. Very curious to see how this comes out.

PS: Did I mention I really like my vest...LOL

 

[backcountryislife]

I'm curious about the dynamics of an avy. I hear about the gust or air displacement that hits before the snow.

I guess I'm wondering if the gust would propel the air brake ahead or into the air? Would that be bad or good?

Does snow in an avy flow like water? If so, what happens to a person that is floating in a river down stream with a rope or blanket or tube behind him. Does the current just push the blanket or tube up to the peson or does it act like a sea anchor?

I wonder what would happen if you deployed the bag/brake and were still on the sled trying to get away?

Thanks guys for again thinking out side the box. Very curious to see how this comes out.

PS: Did I mention I really like my vest...LOL

In water, a rope generally gets pushed into you if it's upstream of you (depends on the proximity of holes, eddies, etc of course)

The airbrake I don't think is intended for when the slide is about to hit you from above (where it would be preceded by an airblast) I don't think, and if you're getting hit with the airblast... yer skrood, I don't see any kind of brake saving you!! As for deploying on the sled, I'd think that you could deploy, then the sled would go down with the slide but you'd slow down & come off the machine.