Avalanche aftermath

[0007]

So, I was thinking
Over 200 people have died in canada so far this year from drowning
They expect 1 death per day during the summer and we don't even hear about a vast majority of them, a kid drowns and it's a sad day for all of us but no blame is laid
Your bud drowns while swimming with you and people feel sorry for you, your bud dies in an avy and you are both idiot's for being there
Why the difference?

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

nobody is trying to shut down swimming... thats about the only difference.

 

[tukernater]

Probly cheaper to retreive a body out of the water then the mountains,most of the time,it sure is double standards,just like tree huggers,were are they when theres a forest fire?NOT FIGHTING THE FIRE!

 

[longtrack156]

Media sensationalism!

 

[sled_guy]

Percentages figure in there as well. The number of hours spent swimming is several times the number of hours spent riding snowmobiles. So the percentage of people getting caught in an avy are higher per hour spent riding.

Also, swimming is common place, avys are not.

sled_guy

 

[AndrettiDog]

Probly cheaper to retreive a body out of the water then the mountains,most of the time,it sure is double standards,just like tree huggers,were are they when theres a forest fire?NOT FIGHTING THE FIRE!

No way...every time a rafter or other person falls in the river, there is a search for miles if the body is not found. They can't take a chance so they quickly get downstream. Big effort. There was someone horseback riding in my area last summer and fell in the spring run off. They found her weeks later.

Anyway, good point. People also die on the ski hill from colliding with trees. It isn't seen as stupid (especially if they have a helmet on), but just bad luck. However, nobody really goes after the ski resort. It's just part of the game.

The rafting example is a good one. Because people feel safe until they are not. Well, the river doesn't stop flowing when someone gets hurt or falls in. At least in snowmobiling you can shut the motor off. If you want to live life your way then you have to take the risks that are associated.

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

No way...every time a rafter or other person falls in the river, there is a search for miles if the body is not found. They can't take a chance so they quickly get downstream. Big effort. There was someone horseback riding in my area last summer and fell in the spring run off. They found her weeks later.

Anyway, good point. People also die on the ski hill from colliding with trees. It isn't seen as stupid (especially if they have a helmet on), but just bad luck. However, nobody really goes after the ski resort. It's just part of the game.

The rafting example is a good one. Because people feel safe until they are not. Well, the river doesn't stop flowing when someone gets hurt or falls in. At least in snowmobiling you can shut the motor off. If you want to live life your way then you have to take the risks that are associated.

one of the best posts I have ever read.. really good comparison on stupid crap that happens, and people die, but with sledding, its obviously just dumb drunk rednecks at fault. I know when people are being dumb tourists and drown in the river near us, oh woah is them.. big huge accident. NO, they were being F***ing DUMB and died, but when a sledder does something and dies, its just a huge threat to the world and needs to be shut down, even if its a large freak, accident. Considering there is almost always always and avy danger during the winter, whenever some gets caught the media makes it out like its eminat death and everyone who goes out is retarted. Dont get me wrong, people have died being dumb.. but its annoying when things just go bad and its still there fault.

This is again, the whole double standard media thing. Anyone who does anything motorized has probably seen this more then a time or two.

 

[backcountryislife]

As a guy who boats class V, has had friends die in WW, and makes part of my living working on a class V river...

I agree 150%. I've had a number of friends die in WW, but not one from a slide. I've always said that boating higher end stuff is like riding in a slide, it's constantly changing & taking you places you don't really want to be.

I believe that in CO we've had at least 3 deaths on commercial trips in the WW industry, if this was to happen on a guided tour in avy terrain, people would be in jail. Commercials aside, we're looking at way more WW deaths per year than avy deaths. I'm guessing user days are notably higher (300,000+ custies /year on the ark alone) but still we accept that as understandable risk, but avalanche risk is considered inherently stupid. Not really fair how these things get compared imo.

 

[Himark]

There was someone horseback riding in my area last summer and fell in the spring run off. They found her weeks later.

Yes I knew her (Mary Brake).. She was from Lincoln and left behind a 9 year old girl. Her daughter was on another horse and watched her mom go down. They ended up finding her body very near to where she went off. It has been 2 summers back now.

 

[tranquillicer]

Not quite

No way...every time a rafter or other person falls in the river, there is a search for miles if the body is not found. They can't take a chance so they quickly get downstream. Big effort. There was someone horseback riding in my area last summer and fell in the spring run off. They found her weeks later.

Anyway, good point. People also die on the ski hill from colliding with trees. It isn't seen as stupid (especially if they have a helmet on), but just bad luck. However, nobody really goes after the ski resort. It's just part of the game.

The rafting example is a good one. Because people feel safe until they are not. Well, the river doesn't stop flowing when someone gets hurt or falls in. At least in snowmobiling you can shut the motor off. If you want to live life your way then you have to take the risks that are associated.

I use to work in the ski industry. If you think that no-one ever goes after the resort after a stupid accident your wrong. Even though the back of every lift pass spells out very clearly that the resort will not be held responsible for any injury or death as a result of participating in the sport at that particular venue, people file claims against the resort for the silliest things.
The sound of the heli engine "shutting down" on the pad near the first aid building was a silence that no one wanted to hear. A death was a very serious issue and always involved a lengthy, expensive investigation and if any fault could be laid on the resort you know that a law suite was the next step.
Liability insurance has to be a real killer for any of these industries whether it is skiing,WW rafting, kyaking etc. High risk equals injuries-deaths-law suits. Too many people don't want to except responsibility for their actions.
We had 2 drowning near us about 3wks ago and it took a crew divers and equipment nearly a wk to recover them. nothing cheap about that either.

 

[AndrettiDog]

I use to work in the ski industry. If you think that no-one ever goes after the resort after a stupid accident your wrong. Even though the back of every lift pass spells out very clearly that the resort will not be held responsible for any injury or death as a result of participating in the sport at that particular venue, people file claims against the resort for the silliest things.
The sound of the heli engine "shutting down" on the pad near the first aid building was a silence that no one wanted to hear. A death was a very serious issue and always involved a lengthy, expensive investigation and if any fault could be laid on the resort you know that a law suite was the next step.
Liability insurance has to be a real killer for any of these industries whether it is skiing,WW rafting, kyaking etc. High risk equals injuries-deaths-law suits. Too many people don't want to except responsibility for their actions.
We had 2 drowning near us about 3wks ago and it took a crew divers and equipment nearly a wk to recover them. nothing cheap about that either.

Sorry, I was very general. I worked for Vail Resorts for 7 years, so I know what you are saying. What I really meant to say, was that nobody can go after the ski industry in an effort to shut it down or not allow skiers to ski anymore which is what others were referring to in efforts to stop snowmobilers from accessing certain hills. People will always sue.

Yes I knew her (Mary Brake).. She was from Lincoln and left behind a 9 year old girl. Her daughter was on another horse and watched her mom go down. They ended up finding her body very near to where she went off. It has been 2 summers back now.

That was a really sad story the way it took place. Especially since the family was waiting for days and weeks for the recovery of the body. It was in a creek that you couldn't float a tube down, but the run off was huge. Very sad that other family members saw what happened.

 

[knee deep in it]

about 300,000 americans will die every year as a direct result of being overweight.

about 16,000 die from drunk driving

440,000 die from smoking

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

about 300,000 americans will die every year as a direct result of being overweight.

about 16,000 die from drunk driving

440,000 die from smoking

We can be pissed about all the other sport deaths vs sledding, or just look at those.. when folks want to say people who sled are just being dumb going into avy terrain...

If the same judgement was layed on people who smoked(risk wise) versus sledding, lighting up a single cig would get you shunned forever. You can do something that is know to cause severe health issues, and most will never say a thing, while everytime I tell somebody I sled they tell me its so dangerous and im gonna get caught in an avalanche..

 

[backcountryislife]

Funny, we all take risks, that's part of riding.

If 40+ people nearly drowned, and 2 died from a single WW accident, I can guarantee you that we'd see a similar response to what we saw this winter. We see a ton of negativity from different situations throughout the year, it's

I don't get how so many people just want to whine about the other sports, who cares? Oh, poor us, the lefties are coming to get us because they want us to stop killing ourselves... Tell your retarded buddy to turn on his brain before he goes out during high avy danger & give the stinking anti-types one less piece of ammo.

Sorry, but I don't get the self pity that some guys want to profess, it just doesn't make sense to me. It's a man's sport, quit whining about how hard it is to be us, sack up, go ride, & tell your buddy to SMARTEN UP!! If we keep letting retards stay retarded in this sport we deserve EVERYTHING that they try to throw at us. If WW guides were as stupid as some of the people I see on the mountain... THAT sport would be shut down in a heartbeat.


btw, speaking of retarded... smokers...

 

[Wheel House Motorsports]

I think the issue is, when people are reviewing the situation that caused an avalanche death, it seems so very obvious that it was a bad idea, sometimes, yes, duh, it was retarted, BUT, one thing I feel that happens is that its so easy to beleive the slide was eminant, as you know it happened, everything seems obvious once its done. All it takes is a million in one chance, but once it happens, it seems like somebody was out trying to get killed. I dont know if this is coming across the way I want it to, but I feel its hard to look back at something objectively once it has already happened, as we know the outcome. In reality, every hill thats pretty steep COULD slide on any given day... most are VERY VERY unlikely in low danger conditions, so we take the risk. As someone making choices about what is safe/not safe, there are a lot of factors to include, many pointing at safe, maybe one or two throwing up flags, I think we all accept that there is going to be some risk, and we have to chose when the danger is to high to be worth it. The issue im getting at is when looking back its easy to put a LOT more emphasis on the red flags, as you know something went bad.

This post is kinda long and probably hard to understand, im kinda tired, its late.

Point being, I think sledders are often judged a hair on the harsh side as its always easy to make the right choices when you have a bad situation to look at an critique. Althought I definately can attest to some dumb crap being done on the hill, I used to be one of the tards who knew nothing, but I tried to wise up a hair... might be riding with my girlfriend every weekend, sorta a good reminder to be smart having her around.

 

[backcountryislife]

Well put. I think in WW the issue is more similar than people want to believe. People can easily look back & say, "that rock is dangerous, an accident waiting to happen"http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/accident-on-the-ark-32125.html, the guide OBVIOUSLY didn't have a clue & should be arrested" http://www.mountainbuzz.com/forums/f11/wtf-on-clear-creek-31295.html, or "they shouldn't have been out there at those levels" (I could provide dozens of links)or something like that, but the reality is ANY time you get in the water you take a risk. A guy died in class II last year. That's the equivalent of getting caught in a slide on a 8 degree pitch. Risk is everywhere... be afraid.

The backlash is similar, but the difference is they have the backing of a needed tourism industry in the areas, whereas we have almost zero backing from local industry.


On the other hand, when my buddy Derk (that's Count to you!!) died last year, I didn't see some massive backlash, people just realized that a good kid had a bad accident, and sh** happens. The difference is that in kayaking, we're likely not going to kill anyone else WITH us when we go, whereas sledders are retards who highmark above their buddy & kill the buddy along with a few other people at the bottom from their stupidity or their willingness to accept risk & allow others to suffer from the result of that risk.

I just get sick of people whining about poor me the sledder that can afford a $10-20K a year habit. All I ever hear is how horrible the nasty greenies are, they cause all our problems... wake up.

Personally I think that nay sled sold with a track longer than 128 should come with a mandatory avy class (small minimal class), then people can't play dumb, they can't pretend they didn't know they were risking OTHER people's lives.

 

[ruffryder]

then people can't play dumb, they can't pretend they didn't know they were risking OTHER people's lives.

Excellent point right there.. OTHER people's lives. Kind of like drunk driving..

All it takes is a million in one chance,

I don't know about that. It isn't all chance. If a person thinks that it is chance, then they shouldn't be out there in the first place. A lot of the reasons why it is easy to see the problem after the fact is that the signs are everywhere, but few people look and use them.

Look at that one avy video with the skiers. It wasn't chance that got them, it was ignorance.

I think a better thought is that "all it takes NOT to get in one is chance", if you are disregarding the AVY warnings and not reading the terrain and risk properly.

It might sound like I am on my high horse, but this is a science here. You get killed by knowledge, or lack there of. I guess I look at it not like an accident, I mean it isn't like hitting a tree or something. It is riding in an area that has the potential to avy. Oops I triggered an avy, isn't like oops I went of the trail and down the ravine.. One is the result of an intended and purposeful direction and control of the machine, the other isn't. At least that is how I see it.

 

[backcountryislife]

The one thing though ruffy, we all have the right to risk our lives (in my opinion). We can choose to take that risk or not. Where I ride, most intelligent people say it's not safe to ride 80% of the season, but it's where I ride, so I pay attention, think about what I'm doing, get as much education as possible... and I take a chance, nearly every day. (yeah, there are the real bad days where I go elsewhere or stay in the flats)

The only difference is that I make sure that there aren't people at the bottom of a chute/ hill or skiers dropping in, or whatever. My risk is MINE & mine alone, the way it should be. The people who don't know the risk they're taking are the ones we should be worried about.

This year one of my neighbors set off a slide that was 2000+ length, and at least 3/4 mile wide. The biggest slide I've ever seen (including videos). He doesn't even wear a helmet much less a beacon, THAT is who I'm scared of!!!

 

[ruffryder]

bcil,

completely agreed. I didn't like the "million in one chance" argument.

 

[AndrettiDog]

Personally I think that nay sled sold with a track longer than 128 should come with a mandatory avy class (small minimal class), then people can't play dumb, they can't pretend they didn't know they were risking OTHER people's lives.

If more clubs, dealers and other groups could persuade people to do just that it might help. Our club offers a discounted class for members every year with Mike Duffy. He has a great beginner class that is targeted at snowmobilers (most classes are more generic). We always get 2-3 that might be interested but that's it. I'm hoping that the club will sponsor a class this year and we might get more people. Just understanding the basics of how snow reacts with terrain, rocks and the sun was a huge eye opener for me. So many people just won't do it though.