Any asphalt experts here?

[Mafesto]

Our development paved our road either 2 1/2 or 3 1/2 years ago.

It is cracking up something terrible.

Here are some pics. Can you determine possible causes from these pics?

The contractor told us how he should do it & gave us a price for that.
We did not ask to cut any corners, we had him procede with his proposed plan at full price.

He recommended that it be sealed either 1 or 2 years later. We had him do that also, again without balking at all on the price.

I hate the thought of pursuing this legally, as I know how hard life is for these smaller contractors.

Just looking for an educated objective opinion on what errors were made along with what my expectations as a customer should be.

This one is an area right in front of my place that we had repaired last fall

 

[GODEEP]

piss poor road contruction underneith. Inadaquate stone base and/or compaction. Along with heavy vehical traffic or loads would be my best guess. But what would I know, I only build roads for a living.. Im not a paver, but those are definitly some crutial things that need to be in good to go, prior to paving. I would assume the asphalt they used, was used all over town. maybe check out some of thier other paving jobs, before you get on the pavers. it may not be all their fault.

 

[teeroy]

most likely caused by poor base preparation, not enough base compaction allows the asphalt to flex and crack. there is obviously a problem with water under the road that caused a soft spot, to be properly repaired it will have to be dug out and have the base redone to eliminate the moisture that caused it. I am no expert, but I haul a lot of road construction and paving equipment. was there no warranty on the job? usually a one year period where the contractor will be responsible for repair.

edit: oops, just noticed the time that it was done. it won't be cheap to be properly rectified.

 

[Mafesto]

Well we are certainly past 1 year.

We are talking about nearly 1 mile of road.
Failure rate similar to the pics shown...probably under 10%, but in a couple of months it appears will be 25% and the road will be total $hit in 5 years

 

[redlineguy]

Not a good base and maybe thin black top or it was to cold when they put it down so it did not compact well, My Buddy owns a Paving Co and will not pave over crap, always digs them out and puts in his own processed gravel.....Its all about the base.


If I remember I will ask him tomorrow what he thinks.







.

 

[Blu Du]

not enough base, looks like asphalt may be thin, and or heavy trucks driving on it when frost is coming out

 

[teeroy]

from the pics it looks like there is no proper gutters for the water to run, and not much crown to the road. that snow on the road on the curb side won't help matters either. it will allow standing water to penetrate the surface, causing more grief.

 

[GODEEP]

very true teeroy. you may want to have an engineer take a look at it, you very well may need to have some ditching and culverts put in or some type of storm water plan done.

 

[racingpit]

Maybe you could have it sealed with a layer of tar? I don't know what they call it, but I know that businesses have their parking lots sealed and it looks like new. Maybe that would help keep water from getting into the cracks.

 

[Good to Go]

Maybe you could have it sealed with a layer of tar? I don't know what they call it, but I know that businesses have their parking lots sealed and it looks like new. Maybe that would help keep water from getting into the cracks.

A little late for sealing..


I ain't no asphalt expert, but does concrete road experience count?? With that said, I agree with others above: Substrate problems, probably thin layer of actual asphalt and drainage issues. Deterioration, once it starts, accelerates on a bell curve; a really steep bell curve.

Bummer

 

[racingpit]

A little late for sealing..


I ain't no asphalt expert, but does concrete road experience count?? With that said, I agree with others above: Substrate problems, probably thin layer of actual asphalt and drainage issues. Deterioration, once it starts, accelerates on a bell curve; a really steep bell curve.

Bummer

I don't know much hahaha...I was just throwing out the suggestion to see what others thought.

Thanks for the input.

 

[Gimpster]

We nearly were snookered into a paving deal when we moved here. Some paving of our developement deal that wasn't mentioned in my purchase agreement that I ended up paying for anyway. I raised cain, telling them how the foundation of the road was not suitable and would have broken up like yours did. I brought it to their attention that moisture under the existing gravel would break it up in a year or two. Finally settled that they removed the existing gravel, lay down the right foundation then roll out a moisture shield, layer a sub level then pave over it. Lucky they did because as thin as the pavement was laid, It would have looked just like yours does in the pictures. Seen it before where pave contractors lay pavement over existing homes gravel driveways and a short time down the road it all breaks up.
Our investment paid off so far, 5 years and no cracks with heavy traffic from hoarse trailers, garbage trucks etc...

----- Gregg -----

 

[niner49]

Toast

Wow, that asphalt is shot! I will give you a better breakdown with a little more info....Can you get a cross section for the road? what type of base was used? what was the min thickness used for sub base or was there a just a base? what is the city's min requirement? you have multiple issues here with drainage just the start of the problem.

Just a few quick comments:
1. Does not like the proper oil content was used with that asphalt mix at the plant. For only a year old that asphalt is allowing too much water into the sub-base to be a correct plant mix, you are getting very little water shed. Do you use heavy salt on your roads?

2. No way was proper compaction met with that base rock! depending on the base rock, 95% is supposed to be met without the ground pumping before that asphalt should of been put down. Was there even base rock put down? or was that laid over compacted dirt, which is typical for a private driveway!

I will comment more tomorrow but do you have an independent lab there that you can hire to take a core sample? should be under $250 but would tell you exactly what was done, and if it was done to code(hopefully you have city codes?) but you will never be able to patch that! Better off hiring another contractor to come out grind that out, use the grindings as base rock then compact that and re-pave that mile of road.

A typical road X-section consist of Compacted dirt, Sub-base (90% Compaction) Base Rock over that (compacted at 95%) then Asphalt usually 60-90mm thick at 95% compaction.

The sub-base is what allows the drainage, being compacted only to 90%.

NOW everything I said depends on a lot of other things like location, cross slopes of the road, over side drains......the list can go on and on.

PM me if you like I have a little experience is roadway design

 

[Mafesto]

Wow, that asphalt is shot! I will give you a better breakdown with a little more info....Can you get a cross section for the road? what type of base was used? what was the min thickness used for sub base or was there a just a base? what is the city's min requirement? you have multiple issues here with drainage just the start of the problem.

Just a few quick comments:
1. Does not like the proper oil content was used with that asphalt mix at the plant. For only a year old that asphalt is allowing too much water into the sub-base to be a correct plant mix, you are getting very little water shed. Do you use heavy salt on your roads?

2. No way was proper compaction met with that base rock! depending on the base rock, 95% is supposed to be met without the ground pumping before that asphalt should of been put down. Was there even base rock put down? or was that laid over compacted dirt, which is typical for a private driveway!

I will comment more tomorrow but do you have an independent lab there that you can hire to take a core sample? should be under $250 but would tell you exactly what was done, and if it was done to code(hopefully you have city codes?) but you will never be able to patch that! Better off hiring another contractor to come out grind that out, use the grindings as base rock then compact that and re-pave that mile of road.

A typical road X-section consist of Compacted dirt, Sub-base (90% Compaction) Base Rock over that (compacted at 95%) then Asphalt usually 60-90mm thick at 95% compaction.

The sub-base is what allows the drainage, being compacted only to 90%.

NOW everything I said depends on a lot of other things like location, cross slopes of the road, over side drains......the list can go on and on.

PM me if you like I have a little experience is roadway design

Losts of info there...Thanks!

Asphalt is either 2.5 or 3.5 years old.
Zero salt use.

For the most part, asphalt was laid over existing gravel road.
It appeared grading was the extent of prep work.

 

[racingpit]

My Dad was always a fan of concrete (he was a project manager for 30 years on airport runways and roads). I know concrete is expensive, but it does last a long time. Of course, asphalt will last a long time if it is done right.

Price Increase:
The thing that sucks even worse is that I bet the price of asphalt has gone up a considerable amount because of the higher crude oil costs (compared to the price when you had that done). Also, the cost of running equipment has gone up because of higher crude oil costs as well. Concrete is in such demand here that you have to be a contractor to even get it.

Don't you love economics???

Retribution:
I don't think that you can take the contractor that installed that to court as it has been past 3 years (I think that it how it works, it has been awhile since I took my business law class). You might contact the contractor and see what they will do, maybe they will backup their work. You might be able to prove that the contractor is at fault- get some expert testimonial. I would imagine that the contractor has some sort of insurance (if he or she is smart LOL) for this type of thing. If it comes down to you footing the bill to have this replaced, you might consult with an attorney to see if there are any options to getting the company to replace this. Lots of people don't like it when someone sues someone, but you really have a justified case. You paid big bucks to have this done, and you expected it to be done right.



So experts, what solution does Maefesto have? Could he have the bad portions torn out, replaced with good base and good compaction, and have asphalt laid down again with some angle for drainage? Or is he better off ripping the whole road out and getting it done right?

 

[racingpit]

Losts of info there...Thanks!

Asphalt is either 2.5 or 3.5 years old.
Zero salt use.

For the most part, asphalt was laid over existing gravel road.
It appeared grading was the extent of prep work.

If you are less than 3 years past the date of installation and performance of the contract, you can take this to court.

 

[GODEEP]

I honestly think there is nothing you can do. The road was prob. built by a different contractor and to codes or specs that are not inplace now if at all, right??. The paver wouldnt have known if the road would hold up or not, unless it was always a soft spot and they noticed this. They prob. should have stood up at that time and said. "Hey.. We cant pave this area". but if it was a dry summer, they wouldnt have noticed this area, unless told about it. Now if you hired an excavating company to come out and construct a road to be paved and this is what happened, I would go after that company. If you just called a paving company and said pave this sucker. then your SOL in my oppinion.

It seem's to me that this is the result of not having proper engineering done.

There is some stuff out there that you could try though. I was reading about this stuff in an equipment mag. that the military is using to fix roads in a pinch.

Check into this stuff. maybe it worth a shot. CeraTech's Pavemend SLQ : http://www.ceratechinc.com/products.asp

 

[GODEEP]

unless part of the pavers job was to make sure the sub base/base/compaction was all good prior to paving. not sure what your contract was, but I would assume that wasnt in there.

 

[ak ryda]

99% of the problems with failing roads is due to the base and water. I see no ditchin or curb and gutter to get the water away from the base. With as much traffic as a small residential roads see, being too thin wouldnt be a problem unless it was less than an inch.

Aligator craching as shown in your pictures is a result of deflection of the asphalt from a failing base.

 

[Good to Go]

I'm going to play off of GODEEP's comments here; Obviously the road is shot. But to just throw out "you got a case, take 'em to court" is nonsense. Details do matter. GODEEP speaks of shared responsibility and/or direct culpability, which is a great way to say apples to oranges and pandora's box all need to be looked at.

Let me throw this out there: often, despite the fact that we think something is "expensive", it isn't in comparison, and you really do get what you pay for. Premium service would include substrate prep, higher grade asphalt (no, it is not all the same..just like concrete is complexly different in the mix designs) and more material (which adds material costs, hauling costs, more labor, etc). Trust me, that type of job is going to cost alot more than... well, you get the picture.

It's like houses (and sleds, lol). You can't have sq footage (quanity) AND great quality AND price. I love people who complain about the shoddiness of the workmanship on their track home....the same people who spent all their time looking for the biggest house out there for the least amount of money. Not knocking shopping around, but does anyone really believe that something didn't have to give for that to happen??

Anyhow, point here, the road clearly sucks and needs to be fixed, but without all the details (Mafesto is trying to learn here, I believe, not sharpen his daggers) it's premature to send the pit bulls....I mean lawyers.