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Allan Block and Paving stones - any experience?

J

Jaynelson

Well-known member
Want to get moving on this project in my back yard and be done in time for nice weather. Building an Allan block retaining wall and paving stone patio. Not a huge wall - maybe 4 feet high and 15 feet long. Patio roughly a 12x12 square. I want to DIY it, but have never done any similar work. Anyone do this either DIY or professionally? It seems like if you take your time getting everything nice and level, measure it up properly, and the drainage sorted out....it shouldn't be too tricky and mostly grunt work? Thoughts? I'm a handy guy in general and have done lots of other construction stuff....tile, framing, drywall, etc....just never worked with this stuff. Any pointers?
 
You need:

Concrete chop saw
Tub saw
Plate packer
Jump packer
Laser or transit level
Shovels and other hand tools
Skid loader would be nice
String line
24" and 48" level
Strong back

Retaining wall. There should be a minimum of 6" gravel base under the block. The top of your first coarse of block should be below or at grade.
A 4' wall I would install grid behind the wall. Geogrid. Your grid lengths would be 6-8' long. That means you have to dig out that far behind the wall before it is installed. After you install the base row back fill it with soil. Your drain tile will sit behind the wall at that level. We typically install 2' or so of a CRUSHED drain rock behind the wall. Make sure the block is level side to side. The tip the block back a 1/8-1/4". If you don't get the block just right you will pay for it after you get up some coarses. Watch your pitch front to back. Sometimes in the manufacturing process the block will not be true, and the back will lift. I can go on forever on this.

Pavers. Again the base is the key. Typically 8" or so, maybe a bit more. I slope 1/8-1/4" across the patio. Depends on the situation. I set it up like concrete with forms. Then use a 2x4 screed board notched out for paver thickness. I use a washed sand for the screening final coarse. So you have about 8" gravel base, 1" sand and pavers. In some cases I use a engineered fabric to separate the soil and gravel base, the again between the gravel and sand.

Use string lines and squares to make sure you are running true.

I have seen DIY that professional and professional that looks worse than DIY. I will elaborate more when I get on my lap top.
 
Thanks Outlaw - that's a great writeup!

Since it sounds like you have lots of experience in this field - what do you think about (instead of pavers) just going with a stamped concrete pad instead of pavers? I have a buddy who owns a concrete outfit and can get me a decent deal on that...and it seems much less labour-intensive from what I've gathered. Looks wise....I don't really prefer one over the other, so that's not helping me. I guess the bad side of concrete is potential cracking over time. I have more than enough projects on the go...so if that's an easier and equally good (nice English there) alternative, I'm game.
 
A few years, been at it since I was 14 and I turn 40 in a month or so. Landscape architecture degree, minor in horticulture. Sold my first project when I was 17. Whether it's a $500 project or $500,000 project it's do it right or not at all.

I am biased to pavers, like concrete guys are bias to concrete. Sorry if this offends a concrete contractor. More and more the attitude is not if it will crack but how soon. Frankly I don't know how you can throw down a couple inches of gravel, pack it for a minute, pour mud, and expect it not to crack. Control joints are part of the key.

Stamped concrete. Yes it will crack. The other downfall is that it is slicker than snot. Snow on it is the worst. Ice is safer. Water not too bad but still slick. Don't let em blow smoke there is a product to make it not so slippery.

DIY - most stamped here runs around 7-10$ a sq ft. Depending on access, pattern, ect. Pavers, just the pavers, 3-7$ per sq ft if you don't pick out something crazy expensive. So buy the time you rent equipment, gravel, ect. You would be pretty close. If pricing there is about the same.

I would guess a small patio that size is about 40 hr project maybe a tick more depending on shape, cutting, access, amount of cut and fill ...... You get the picture. Don't expect you and 3 buddies to have it done in a day though. That's 40 hrs for someone that does it everyday.

If you go the paver route. Fill the paver joints with poly sand. There is about 4 different brands. I can discuss that further if you go the paver route.

Don't buy pavers from a big box store. They are considerably less dense. Much softer. When you get done and pack the pavers in, you will end up with a bunch of broken pavers. Try to find a landscape wholesaler.

Ooooof I can keep going if needed.
 
Oh yeah. A properly installed paver patio will not heave, settle and move. It will last nearly forever. Improperly installed, you will have a mess.

I should make a disclaimer and say if the soil below the base is suitable.
 
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Me or Jay?

Depends on what you pick out for pavers. Average can go anywhere from 12-22. It depends on materials for the most part. Most of my customer pick out something in the 14-16$ range. Then we may accent with something more expensive.
 
Thanks again for all the great info!

So as it sits right now the patio site is level with the lawn. Ultimately....I was the pavers to be level with the lawn unless that's an issue and they should be elevated from lawn? I just don't want an edge to trip over was my thinking.

So if they are to be level with lawn....I should dig down roughly a foot....8" gravel, 1" sand, 3" paver thickness. Just wanna get that done cause I have buddy's mini excavator down there right now and much faster than digging with the goon spoon!
 
You got it! How is your digging already and we have 3-4' of frost in the ground yet. Your climate may allow for less gravel/base. Depends how much you are affected by freeze/thaw.

When you install the gravel. Use a road base, base coarse, crushed granite with fines, recycled concrete. Something pack able. Compact to at least 90% compaction. Simple test. Take your boot and kick the heel straight down. No dent your good. Exceptions to that, if the top is a little dry. Once you start compacting you will understand what I am talking about.

Plate compactor do small lifts(additions of gravel). Jump packer you can do thicker lifts.

I would set the patio up a 1" or so from the grass. Just don't get it too low the grass catches water and it puddles.

When you dig it out try to keep it as smooth as possible. Try to keep from having one spot 18" deep and another 10".
 
Outlaw has pretty much summed it up. he did a very good write up on a how to and the tools needed. The thickness and type of material for your base both on the wall and the patio can differ depending on soil type and how bad your freeze thaw is. Also i dont think you will have to use grid on your wall if it is no more than 4 feet tall and only fifteen feet long. Im sure it will turn out good and when you do things on your own and then see the finished product you can feel good about it cause you did the work. Heres a couple of projects i have done to give you some ideas.

IMG_0765.jpg IMG_0817.jpg IMG_1069.jpg IMG_1912.jpg IMG_2102.jpg IMG_2298.jpg IMG_1745.jpg
 
You got it! How is your digging already and we have 3-4' of frost in the ground yet. Your climate may allow for less gravel/base. Depends how much you are affected by freeze/thaw.
My place is pretty low elevation in town, and doesn't get a ton of snow or prolonged cold temps over the winter. This time of year, the top couple inches seems to freeze if it gets cold overnight, but I haven't had any snow in the yard or really frozen ground in a couple weeks or more.
 
Outlaw has pretty much summed it up. he did a very good write up on a how to and the tools needed. The thickness and type of material for your base both on the wall and the patio can differ depending on soil type and how bad your freeze thaw is. Also i dont think you will have to use grid on your wall if it is no more than 4 feet tall and only fifteen feet long. Im sure it will turn out good and when you do things on your own and then see the finished product you can feel good about it cause you did the work. Heres a couple of projects i have done to give you some ideas.
Thanks man - looks good!
 
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