eh, while I agree with most said so far, this is one place I set my foot down. Any B&M shop that refuses to open up the retail portion of there store to online sales in an effort to stay competitive with todays market needs to shut it doors and move on. There is NO excuses I've ever heard that can justify running a business in this day and age and not having online sales. If these B&M shops stopped being afraid of computers and made there products available to a customer base 1000s of times larger then what they can reach in there local community via online channels, then they could afford to sell those after market parts at competitive prices and give local people a reason to shop locally. Why buy online when I can buy the same part for the same price from my local shop! I used to be in a the reef business, and this was a HUGE contention. I had an online store but offered walk ins by appointment. I would here nothing but grief from local B&M shops, who tried (with no avail) to bar us online guys from being able to purchase from wholesalers. It always baffled me, they had the inventory, they had the staff, they had the space.. There was nothing stopping them from offering there entire product line online as well. If I was able to sustain a business with online sales alone..just imagine how much better a B&M shop with a SOLID walk in customer base could have done if they explored the same options. They would have had twice the turnover, could have lowered prices and blown the competition out of the water.
A Service Department Perspective
- Thread starter SmokeyBear
- Start date
eh, while I agree with most said so far, this is one place I set my foot down. Any B&M shop that refuses to open up the retail portion of there store to online sales in an effort to stay competitive with todays market needs to shut it doors and move on. There is NO excuses I've ever heard that can justify running a business in this day and age and not having online sales. If these B&M shops stopped being afraid of computers and made there products available to a customer base 1000s of times larger then what they can reach in there local community via online channels, then they could afford to sell those after market parts at competitive prices and give local people a reason to shop locally. Why buy online when I can buy the same part for the same price from my local shop! I used to be in a the reef business, and this was a HUGE contention. I had an online store but offered walk ins by appointment. I would here nothing but grief from local B&M shops, who tried (with no avail) to bar us online guys from being able to purchase from wholesalers. It always baffled me, they had the inventory, they had the staff, they had the space.. There was nothing stopping them from offering there entire product line online as well. If I was able to sustain a business with online sales alone..just imagine how much better a B&M shop with a SOLID walk in customer base could have done if they explored the same options. They would have had twice the turnover, could have lowered prices and blown the competition out of the water.
Im in the auto service business at a 5 point GM store. I agree with alot of your points but I dont think we will EVER get the public to see this. Mostly because the way this business works we are nothing more than a middle man for the manufacture to use as a buffer tool between public. We will never be seen in the proper light that we are.
Manufacture says we wont pay for xxxxx process. We have to deliver the bad news to you and then on top of that we want you to check the box on the survey that says "Completely satisfied" if not the manufacture will penalize us in some way or another.
But as for warranty short pay I will tell you what i tell the techs.
"you dont like it you can always go work at Joe Shmoes garage"
or in your case the "Joes small engine and mowers shop"
Warranty sux no matter what manufacture. But our guys can beat warranty time after a couple of jobs, its just those first few that really get to you.
Manufacture says we wont pay for xxxxx process. We have to deliver the bad news to you and then on top of that we want you to check the box on the survey that says "Completely satisfied" if not the manufacture will penalize us in some way or another.
But as for warranty short pay I will tell you what i tell the techs.
"you dont like it you can always go work at Joe Shmoes garage"
or in your case the "Joes small engine and mowers shop"
Warranty sux no matter what manufacture. But our guys can beat warranty time after a couple of jobs, its just those first few that really get to you.
A
aebsledder
Well-known member
Good dealer
I live in an area that has a less than reputable dealer for the type of sled I ride. I don't think they are bad people, you can just tell they are more oriented towards motorcycles and atv's than sleds. This being the case, myself and everyone I ride with chose to drive 3.5 hrs to Idaho Falls to buy our sleds. We got great deals, service, etc. The problem is when you do have a service issue it is not really convenient to make the drive down there. So we decided to have them serviced at another dealer that is closer. (although still not the one in town) That dealer always made it a point to say things like "thanks for your business" and "let me know if we can do anything for you." That went a long way. They aren't the cheapest around, but their customer service is outstanding. So this year it came time for one of our group to buy a new sled. Guess where he bought it? I will probably buy from them if I choose to stick with Polaris. I guess my point is this: Regardless of the details of running a sled shop, sometimes it is nice to have someone who genuinely cares about their customer. I suppose the hard part is trying to make a buck or two in the process.
I live in an area that has a less than reputable dealer for the type of sled I ride. I don't think they are bad people, you can just tell they are more oriented towards motorcycles and atv's than sleds. This being the case, myself and everyone I ride with chose to drive 3.5 hrs to Idaho Falls to buy our sleds. We got great deals, service, etc. The problem is when you do have a service issue it is not really convenient to make the drive down there. So we decided to have them serviced at another dealer that is closer. (although still not the one in town) That dealer always made it a point to say things like "thanks for your business" and "let me know if we can do anything for you." That went a long way. They aren't the cheapest around, but their customer service is outstanding. So this year it came time for one of our group to buy a new sled. Guess where he bought it? I will probably buy from them if I choose to stick with Polaris. I guess my point is this: Regardless of the details of running a sled shop, sometimes it is nice to have someone who genuinely cares about their customer. I suppose the hard part is trying to make a buck or two in the process.
you know ive got the same issue it seem as alot of other people i bought a used sled 1st trip clutch went i took it to my local dealer it had an extended warrenty and it did not cover the clutch found out after i dropped it off so i asked them to remove the clutch for me a dumb kid comes out starts beating on the side of the clutch tool not the end all im thinking is that must be a new way till the master mech came out and said dont do that and i cringed thinking well there went the clutch they charged me diagnostic to find out what was wrong and to remove the clutch and said it will cost 600 for a new clutch needless to say i took the sled and came on this site and a dealer offered to help me and got me a new clutch for free and made a customer for life i get my parts cheaper than the the local dealer will sell them no sales tax and the dealer has to order them anyway.I buy them cheaper get them faster and oh yes when my local wanted to charge me 600 a dealer that was 400 miles away went to bat for me with the manufacture made a customer for life.If you want to stay in buisiness in these hard times ask your customers HOW CAN I EARN YOUR BUISINESS just a thought because i tell you Oregon Trail Sports earned mine until a local dealer wants to earn mine i guess i have to drive 400 miles oh gotta go my parts just showed up thanks michelle
I cannot say about the sled market but online sales is a hard thing in the car market. Or more so selling over the counter when someone can buy it online. Why? Say in the car market you are trying to compete with the pricing of a place like Summit Racing. A place that does such a HUGE volume of business how can a small shop ever compete? I know multiple shop owners that have small performance shops. They sell a few sets of headers a year. To get the pricing that Summit gets, they'd have to sell a few HUNDRED a year. Is some little backwoods performance shop ever going to do that? Nope.
That is just the real world experience I have, I am certain you will find similar situations in the powersports world. I mean it is great to say, "If you got in the online world you could sell so much more and so much cheaper!", but they really have to do the volume of business to make it happen. Which requires inventory, more personnel, storage space, and probably paying a webmaster to setup a better website for you. Is it worth it? Likely, but it is going to take a lot of investment and time on the shops part. And in the end, if every dealer did this, someone somewhere would just slash price to drive volume. Before you know it, no one would buy it at a price higher than that guy, now we are in the same predicement.
It is really a sad state of affairs, but in this day and age I swear people get mad if someone makes a buck. They want to be a millionare but expect that me selling them something I won't make more than a $1 or 2.
I am a Matco Tools Distributor, I sell professional grade tools and equipment to professionals. I swear sometimes it feels like my customers want me to buy an item at X and turn around and sell it to them at X + $1. "But you'd sell so many more". I'd have to sell so many, I don't have enough customers for that to ever happen!
NONE of what I say accounts for poor customer service! Poor customer service is just your shops problem. But poor customer service does not mean, "They won't sell me a sled $1000 under MSRP", it does not mean "They won't discount my parts 10% because I don't want to pay that much." and it doesn't mean, "They won't warranty my shocks even though I am only a year out of warranty!".
It DOES mean, "Well they didn't have it in stock but they apologized and said they will get it for me asap." Or, they have the parts waiting for me when I arrive. They greet me with a smile and by name. They shake my hand when I'm just standing around looking at the latest sleds. They make a proactive point to let me know what is going on with my sled. The last 3 were things my dealer did the last time I was there. I just stopped to pick up parts I ordered. The salesman who sold me my sled smiled and shook my hand. The parts guy knew me by name and had my parts close at hand. And the service writer called me over to give me an update on the updates my sled is in the shop for right now.
I guess I am lucky, but in the end I have a pretty decent dealer. I'll gladly pay the higher price for the service I get. I still service my on sled, because I enjoy doing it. It gives me something to do besides sit on the couch and watch TV. And a sense of accomplishment.
Now if I could just find a decent dealer in the Old Forge, NY area to deal with when I am up there...
That is just the real world experience I have, I am certain you will find similar situations in the powersports world. I mean it is great to say, "If you got in the online world you could sell so much more and so much cheaper!", but they really have to do the volume of business to make it happen. Which requires inventory, more personnel, storage space, and probably paying a webmaster to setup a better website for you. Is it worth it? Likely, but it is going to take a lot of investment and time on the shops part. And in the end, if every dealer did this, someone somewhere would just slash price to drive volume. Before you know it, no one would buy it at a price higher than that guy, now we are in the same predicement.
It is really a sad state of affairs, but in this day and age I swear people get mad if someone makes a buck. They want to be a millionare but expect that me selling them something I won't make more than a $1 or 2.
I am a Matco Tools Distributor, I sell professional grade tools and equipment to professionals. I swear sometimes it feels like my customers want me to buy an item at X and turn around and sell it to them at X + $1. "But you'd sell so many more". I'd have to sell so many, I don't have enough customers for that to ever happen!
NONE of what I say accounts for poor customer service! Poor customer service is just your shops problem. But poor customer service does not mean, "They won't sell me a sled $1000 under MSRP", it does not mean "They won't discount my parts 10% because I don't want to pay that much." and it doesn't mean, "They won't warranty my shocks even though I am only a year out of warranty!".
It DOES mean, "Well they didn't have it in stock but they apologized and said they will get it for me asap." Or, they have the parts waiting for me when I arrive. They greet me with a smile and by name. They shake my hand when I'm just standing around looking at the latest sleds. They make a proactive point to let me know what is going on with my sled. The last 3 were things my dealer did the last time I was there. I just stopped to pick up parts I ordered. The salesman who sold me my sled smiled and shook my hand. The parts guy knew me by name and had my parts close at hand. And the service writer called me over to give me an update on the updates my sled is in the shop for right now.
I guess I am lucky, but in the end I have a pretty decent dealer. I'll gladly pay the higher price for the service I get. I still service my on sled, because I enjoy doing it. It gives me something to do besides sit on the couch and watch TV. And a sense of accomplishment.
Now if I could just find a decent dealer in the Old Forge, NY area to deal with when I am up there...
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It's not that tough. You don't sell the same POS parts that summit sales. You find other little top notch high quality manufacturers that make the parts people want to buy, and you price them accordingly. I went threw the same thing when I built my race motor. Sure I can order everything threw summit...but will I really get the top notch stuff.. I'll end up with outsourced pos of crap with 4340 stamps on them. So you take the better products and you sell those online, and in your shop...by having multiple sales channels that affords you the ability to sell these products at a more reasonable price. Don't tell me oh.. I can't compete with summit on headmen headers.. when you could be selling Lemon, or weiland for blowers when you could be selling LittleField. You sell Calvert Racing bars, instead of whatever POS slappers summit sells.. same thing goes with sleds.. Sure you can just buy the big name stuff, or you can talk to the other little guys who really make the top notch product stock them in your store, and sell them online.
What happen when the "real" buisnesses are all dried up? Will the prices on the internet stuff start to rise? You cant argue that a "real" shop with overhead can sell stuff at the same margin as a guy working out of his garage and selling you parts at 5% over cost. IMO th problem lies in the manufacturers. They should enforce a minimum sale price to spur competetition in service and not just pricing. The customer would be better off in the end. What the manufacturers dont seem to grasp is that they are reducing the profitability of their entire brand. Some vendors force a min. price to make sure dealers are not cutting each others throat. We saw our only local Polaris dealer (Extreme) go under and to see it happen sucks. Great service, fair pricing and the sales/parts staff was awesome but at the end of the day cheap is more important to some people .It is also bad for me the consumer that they are no longer around.
I really believe this, Low margin internet sales will hurt the Snowmobile industy and that in return will hurt us all in the end. Sometimes people will step over a quarter to pick up a penny.
I really believe this, Low margin internet sales will hurt the Snowmobile industy and that in return will hurt us all in the end. Sometimes people will step over a quarter to pick up a penny.
Thats an easy claim to make from your couch. If the customer wants headman headers what do you do. Places like summit stock up on the cheap stuff because the average consumer doesnt give a crap about anything but price. Average customers make up 90% of the pool. If a store makes 5% on a product i also believe it directly affs "your" customer service as well. If you buy a cam and the dealer made 10 bucks on it and you have a problem would you really expect him to replace it, or would you take it out, wait for the RMA process and your car be down the entire time. Dealers have to make money...bottom line. Lets all hope that the cheapskates dont find themselve on the other end of this someday. Everybody can be replaced with somebody cheaper, maybe society will remember that when it hits our paychecks and not just the "greedy" dealers.
C
Chubby
Active member
Yes it awsome buying on line untill you need techinical help ! GFL on that. I have a jaguar arctic 4 stroke in my shop now The coustomer bought a turbo kit on line from Finishline Motorsports. Awsome price and thats where it stoped. Well to make it short You cant sell a pump gas turbo kit to someone running 12.0 compression and expect it to live on 8 lbs of boost here in minnesota for long runs......... Sorry they said !!!
That was the point I was trying to make. Sure it is great to say "you should cut your prices to compete, or find how you can sell it cheaper even if it means a loss.".
THat is the mentality that brings us "outsourcing". Companies produce a product here and pay their employees a fair wage. The product gets to you, and it costs too much. So they pick up and move production to China. Hundreds lose jobs, and boom the product is at the price you want it to be.
I know that is a radical standpoint but it is the honest progression of things. It is why things get outsourced. Companies feel they can make it cheaper elsewhere(and they are right), and they make more profit but also lower the price to you. Leaving you more likely to buy and buy more. Only reinforcing their assumptions.
THat is the mentality that brings us "outsourcing". Companies produce a product here and pay their employees a fair wage. The product gets to you, and it costs too much. So they pick up and move production to China. Hundreds lose jobs, and boom the product is at the price you want it to be.
I know that is a radical standpoint but it is the honest progression of things. It is why things get outsourced. Companies feel they can make it cheaper elsewhere(and they are right), and they make more profit but also lower the price to you. Leaving you more likely to buy and buy more. Only reinforcing their assumptions.
B
boxster7614
Well-known member
My problem with local dealers is the attitude that the parts counter guys have. No I'm not buying a new sled...No I don't have a new sled I didn't buy from you that needs warranty work done. So why is it that I get treated like a Jackass when I go into get parts or service? Most times the guy at the parts counter acts like I am interupting his day by asking him to look up a few parts to see if they have them instock. Do I have to come into your store every day to get treated like a "real" customer? Just because you don't know my face or I didn't just buy a new sled from you do I deserve to be treated like a dick? I have sleds and no ATVs, This means that I only come into the local dealers during the winter months so it's hard to be "well known" So I don't deserve a friendly smile or curtious service? I don't know what the average sleder spends on parts and oil in a typical season. Last year I didn't do much "upgrading" but I still managed to spend $500-$800 in stupid parts and oil. I found one local dealer that treated me like a human being from day one that I didn't buy a sled from and now I always travel across town to get my parts from them, passing up the dealer that I live next to. They don't reconize my face or know who I am most of the time but I don't get the "why the hell are you asking me to look up parts....did you buy your sled here?" attitude. So I support them because of attitude. And yes I am willing to pay a little more for my parts if they have them instock and I can get them the same day. But at the same time if I'm going to get charged 30% more for the same parts I can order myself over the internet in the same time period, then have to wait for a phone call when they come in. Tell me why again that is a service for me? In short its all about atittude and if you have the parts in stock.
Not really, I did the same thing when I was in the reef business. I specialized, and I did well, but your missing the point. If you are already selling X products, it's just foolish not to offer them to the widest possible customer group. Any "BM" or "real" store, that refuses to get with the times and instead just ***** and moan about "internet" is just putting them selves out of business. I have no sympathy.
You have the product
The expertise..there is no excuse.
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i beleive service is what can really make or break it for me. closest dealer is 2 hours one way but i drive 3 hours for my dealer, no i don;t get smokin deals but the owner is a yamaha brain scientist with an award winning mechanic out back. we buy multiple sleds from them and when we need some work done, we haul it all up there early a.m. and its either done same day or ready when we are in the area again. and everything is done right and if something is wrong it is fixed asap.
i'm movin to another province but i will mostly likely keep my dealer for awhile.
i'm movin to another province but i will mostly likely keep my dealer for awhile.
S
snowmobiler
Well-known member
last sled i bought i was in the showroom doing some paperwork and the service boy comes out and looks at a sled next to me and says..im just looking at how the skis go on.
last sled i bought i was in the showroom doing some paperwork and the service boy comes out and looks at a sled next to me and says..im just looking at how the skis go on.
Hahaha, I would've asked for a refund.
They already do, it's called 'dealer cost'.
There is always going to be someone who sells at the 'minimum price' no matter what it is. What you are suggesting is that the OEM 'hold back' money and then rebate it. Even that won't work becaues the seller will figure in the rebate and sell 'below cost' to get people to buy.
It's been that way forever. Businesses do it and then figure out how to make money other places or they go out of business and the ones not doing it get the customers.
sled_guy
There are lots of companys that have minimum sale prices. If all of a company's dealers whore stuff out at 5% over dealer the new value of that product line is 5% over dealer. If all you make is 5% on an item and people will only shop you if you have it in stock, where does the money for inventory, rent and utilities come from. If dealers sold items for MSRP you cant argue that would be bad for either the dealer or the company. The consumers willingness to pay for the product would determine what it sells for. Isnt this similar to how Klim has protects their dealers. It sure seems that everybody lists the stuff at the same price and if somebody is whoring it out for 5% over cost and they find out they will no longer sell Klim. IMO Klim must have a big marup to encourage dealers to stock it.
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Lets do the some math and we will use a small shop as example
Rent 1200
Util 250
Phone 250
At an average 10% margin you need to sell 17,000 worth of product a month just to pay the bills.
Lets say you pay yourself minimum wage and you only work 40 hours a week
1240 a month That requires another 12400 dollars a month
So far we are up to 29400 a month to break even and pay yourself minimum wage.
I dont get where the money for 50k worth of inventory comes from......
On top of that customer want everything in stock, at such a small margin where does the money come from. It seems like alot of members here have the "democratic" mindset. They expect an aweful lot from dealers but dont want to pay for it.
Rent 1200
Util 250
Phone 250
At an average 10% margin you need to sell 17,000 worth of product a month just to pay the bills.
Lets say you pay yourself minimum wage and you only work 40 hours a week
1240 a month That requires another 12400 dollars a month
So far we are up to 29400 a month to break even and pay yourself minimum wage.
I dont get where the money for 50k worth of inventory comes from......
On top of that customer want everything in stock, at such a small margin where does the money come from. It seems like alot of members here have the "democratic" mindset. They expect an aweful lot from dealers but dont want to pay for it.
There are MANY companies with "Agreed Upon Minimum Pricing". I had a company come after me once for it. I had an expensive item on my shelf for almost a year. I got sick of looking at it so I threw it on Ebay for like 5% over cost. I got a nasty email within a day or two informing me I was selling "Below the agreed upon minimum" and that if I did so I would no longer be allowed to sell their products. There were some other threats tossed around, but in the end it caught my attention.
I am CERTAIN many aftermarket companies do this. As Boston Racing noted, Klim items are for sale all over the net at about the same price. Maybe $5 - $10 difference for the most part. I gaurantee that to sell Klim products you have to sign a contract that somewhere in it informs you there is a minimum sales price and that is that.
Some people fail to realize that the greatest deals they see, that are often too good to be true, ARE. I know in the tool sales world, you will see items for sale all the time and wonder "how can they make dime one on that?". Simple, they aren't. They are called "Loss Leaders". Put a product on the cover of a promotional flier at some ridiculously low price. Either right at their cost or below cost. They generate a buzz, and get you looking further for more good deals. They roped you in with that good one. Problem is, then those "Loss Leaders" set the market price after a while of doing them. It can get bad.
Gasoline, Cigarettes, Milk, all kinds of things carry minimum pricing requirements. Many(the 3 I just listed) are often at a state or federal government level. Never seen a sign for cigarettes saying "Prices at State Minimum!" That is why "Gas Wars" are a thing of the past. You won't see someone dropping their price on gas $.50 a gallon just to drive business and drive out the competition, because they are no longer legally allowed to.
Oh and just a note, I had my dealer call me today. 2 campaigns done, and installed new primary and secondary clutch springs. $69.75 later I am done. Picking it up tomorrow. I can't complain about that. No added crap, or trying to sell me stuff. Just what I asked for and at a more than fair price.
I am CERTAIN many aftermarket companies do this. As Boston Racing noted, Klim items are for sale all over the net at about the same price. Maybe $5 - $10 difference for the most part. I gaurantee that to sell Klim products you have to sign a contract that somewhere in it informs you there is a minimum sales price and that is that.
Some people fail to realize that the greatest deals they see, that are often too good to be true, ARE. I know in the tool sales world, you will see items for sale all the time and wonder "how can they make dime one on that?". Simple, they aren't. They are called "Loss Leaders". Put a product on the cover of a promotional flier at some ridiculously low price. Either right at their cost or below cost. They generate a buzz, and get you looking further for more good deals. They roped you in with that good one. Problem is, then those "Loss Leaders" set the market price after a while of doing them. It can get bad.
Gasoline, Cigarettes, Milk, all kinds of things carry minimum pricing requirements. Many(the 3 I just listed) are often at a state or federal government level. Never seen a sign for cigarettes saying "Prices at State Minimum!" That is why "Gas Wars" are a thing of the past. You won't see someone dropping their price on gas $.50 a gallon just to drive business and drive out the competition, because they are no longer legally allowed to.
Oh and just a note, I had my dealer call me today. 2 campaigns done, and installed new primary and secondary clutch springs. $69.75 later I am done. Picking it up tomorrow. I can't complain about that. No added crap, or trying to sell me stuff. Just what I asked for and at a more than fair price.
The problem with your numbers is the 10% profit margin. It's usually 50% on everything but the snowmachines themselves.
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