5 Mountain rides in, pros and cons

[richardderkevorkian]

I wouldn’t say it’s impossible for a bigger engine to weigh less, the 600 uses the 800 crank so there’s no weight savings there for the 600 in the heaviest piece in the engine. Plus they have stated they’ve done away with a lot of parts in the 858 compared to the older engines plus shrunk the distance from crank to reeds which also removes material. I’m not saying it’s true or not, no one will know until they actually weigh them side by side, but it’s not impossible.

The 858 has the engine mounts cast into the case and ditches the alluminum mount plate that cat has used from years. I'm sure that's most of the Savings

 

[mountaincat 800]

I wouldn’t say it’s impossible for a bigger engine to weigh less, the 600 uses the 800 crank so there’s no weight savings there for the 600 in the heaviest piece in the engine. Plus they have stated they’ve done away with a lot of parts in the 858 compared to the older engines plus shrunk the distance from crank to reeds which also removes material. I’m not saying it’s true or not, no one will know until they actually weigh them side by side, but it’s not impossible.

Oh but tenacious84 thinks he knows all.

 

[mountaincat 800]

I know. He also said he's not an engine guy and doesn't know the details of the new exhaust valve system. He is simply repeating what was said at Hay Days. There is physically no way you can have a larger crankshaft, larger piston, larger cylinder, larger cylinder head of the 858 when compared to the 600 and have the 858 weigh less. They are still made out of the same materials. It's not like they created some new material that is lighter than air.

I have no doubt the overall 858 vehicle is lighter than a comparable 600 vehicle as the 858 doesn't have the extra mounting pieces for the engine and will have a different exhaust system where they could save some weight too. But when speaking of the engine itself, there is no way the 858 is lighter than the 600.

You just contradicted yourself in your second paragraph. The only difference of the 600 and 858 in the catalyst chassis is the engine.

 

[tenacious84]

You just contradicted yourself in your second paragraph. The only difference of the 600 and 858 in the catalyst chassis is the engine.

Please explain how I contradicted myself. The mounting plate/hardware and exhaust are not part of the engine. If you order a new engine from Arctic Cat, do you get a new exhaust system, do you get new mountings hardware? I simply explain how the vehicle could be lighter while the engine is heavier.

 

[Vern]

My 600 seems really light compared to my 21 hardcore and seems half the size lol but it’s not just the way it looks and feels I think. So sticking a 850 in there is going to be for real. I bet it will perform as well as the others ! I’ll call my dealer today and ask when you can put your money do n

I swung by my dealer today and he said pricing should be released at the end of the month and snow check opens beginning of February

 

[Solarguy]

Not to be that guy or anything but for the guy who wants a real review, there’s another post titled,” turcotte chases catalyst.” In which a pro rider from blue river bc named jamie intchuck (maybe) rides the living poop out of a 600 catalyst. There are times where turcottes 24 Polaris boost has a advantage but it’s shocking how little the guy on the 600 can’t do and he ends up in the same place just takes him a couple theee tries. So yes these guys are absolutely right,skill is a large part of it. I actually bought mine because I was getting a bit to thrown around and I am a little intimidated by the power (I know iam gay sorry chadley I let you down) I kept my 800 though lol. Iam hoping It can make me handle the little guy a little more confidently and in turn build a better skill base and then when the power runs out I can go back to the 800-850. I told my dealer I would change brands if I still suck on a cat in two seasons, “cause it must be the alpha rail .” (That’s a joke) but my riding partner (on a doo) hates it that I suck so bad and of course if I can’t get there he has to turn around lol . After I watched the video with turcotte and jamie I realized it’s on me. I started doing push ups and burpess and iam playing eye of the tiger real loud on the stereo at 5am ! So now if it’ll just ef’n snow I can go get shredy and sendy in the mank. Caleb’s just up the road and I’ll hang with him after I dial. (Hope you understand the sarcasm) lol

Go take a next level backcountry skills course, you will be a different rider after getting pushed, practicing the necessary skills to navigate terrain and facing up to the “I want to be a confident backcountry rider”
Dan is hands on and a very good teacher and they will get you into untracked and fantastic terrain. Dan and his helpers will critique what you need most to improve and you will work on that in real terrain situations. When stuck you will have instant help getting going again and not wasting energy that you WILL NEED on the adventure. They start early and often return in the dark after an awesome ride in the Wyoming mountains!

 

[Solarguy]

My wife many years ago at a Next Level women’s clinic.

 

[mountaincat 800]

Please explain how I contradicted myself. The mounting plate/hardware and exhaust are not part of the engine. If you order a new engine from Arctic Cat, do you get a new exhaust system, do you get new mountings hardware? I simply explain how the vehicle could be lighter while the engine is heavier.

Soo. Your thinking that the exhaust on the bigger 858 is going to be lighter than the 6? Yet the bigger engine cant possibly be lighter?

 

[Pinchecharlie]

I used to have a engine cc calculator but can’t find it. It doesn’t take much of a stroke and bore to change an engine oretty dramatically. Now with better alloys and manufacturing techniques it wouldn’t be all that hard, if light was a goal. The exhaust Iam sure is the same don’t you think? It looks just like my hardcores. They will all weigh more than I can pick up and they weigh 900milkion pounds at the last bar stuck of the day lol. This thing seems like the secret is moving it under you . Just seems more balanced and it doesn’t push which is the little guys lament. So now we just wait for a few more improvements, spend money on aftermarket stuff and have as good a sled as the polaris try hards! Lol

 

[boondocker97]

I'm sure there will be some trade offs in some areas between the 600 and 858 engines on the weight front. The 858 engine ditches the motor mounting plate, uses a much simpler exhaust valve system, and the way the castings are done they look lighter than the current Ctec 800 and old Suzuki 800. I expect the 858 expansion chamber will be larger and weigh more than the 600. The revised 600 uses the same or similar crank to the current 800 ctec, but the 858 gets its increased displacement over the 800 from a stroked crank and longer rods. So the rotating assembly is probably heavier.

We probably won't know the real numbers between the 600 and 858 weights until the 858 hits the scale.

 

[tenacious84]

Soo. Your thinking that the exhaust on the bigger 858 is going to be lighter than the 6? Yet the bigger engine cant possibly be lighter?

That is correct. Size of exhaust is not directly related to size of engine.

 

[tenacious84]

I used to have a engine cc calculator but can’t find it. It doesn’t take much of a stroke and bore to change an engine oretty dramatically. Now with better alloys and manufacturing techniques it wouldn’t be all that hard, if light was a goal. The exhaust Iam sure is the same don’t you think? It looks just like my hardcores. They will all weigh more than I can pick up and they weigh 900milkion pounds at the last bar stuck of the day lol. This thing seems like the secret is moving it under you . Just seems more balanced and it doesn’t push which is the little guys lament. So now we just wait for a few more improvements, spend money on aftermarket stuff and have as good a sled as the polaris try hards! Lol

All of the significant pieces as shown in the cutaway engines are the same materials as previous generations.

The exhaust is not the same. It had to be rerouted for the new chassis. That is why they didn't offer an 800 this year in the catalyst chassis. They weren't going to retool, calibrate, and certify emissions on a new pipe for only one year of existence before being replaced by the 858.

 

[kanedog]

Hug it out guys, hug it out. Actually, don’t. Slug it out guys, slug it out!

 

[mountaincat 800]

Hug it out guys, hug it out. Actually, don’t. Slug it out guys, slug it out!

Awww, the dog is feeling left out.

 

[mountaincat 800]

I can assume that Cat had to retool, calibrate, and certify emissions on a new pipe for the 600 also?

 

[boondocker97]

I can assume that Cat had to retool, calibrate, and certify emissions on a new pipe for the 600 also?

Yes, but that's going to be a multi-year offering that spreads out the cost of the emissions certification.

 

[turboless terry]

That is correct. Size of exhaust is not directly related to size of engine.

Usually the bigger the girl the bigger the pipes

 

[Pinchecharlie]

They lied to us those bastards. Three pounds would save my riding! I might be as good as that guys wife if it where lighter. As is I suck and get stuck. Maybe I’ll spend 20 k on carbon fiber and titanium ? Then I can “send greasy lines.” … how much longer is the stroke and how much bigger is the cylinder from w 600 to a 858? It’s 258cc’s . Doesn’t seem like alot with stroke , bore and head but maybe it is? I just remember reading about the Carls 900 and thinking a little went a long way.

 

[boondocker97]

From a 600 to an 858 your going from 300 to 429 on each cylinder. That's quite a bit. There's a company called BRC that does 500 kits based on 300 KTM dirt bike engines. Takes all new crank, cases, cylinder, and head to make it happen.

Bore and stroke on the ctec 600 are 73.8mm x 70mm
Bore and stroke on the ctec 800 are 85mm x 70mm
Bore and stroke on the ctec 858 are 85mm x 75.6mm

That's about an inch wider and 1/4 taller engine just to cover the difference in bore and stroke from 600 to 850. That's not counting water jacket size that may need to go up to handle the cooling or material to handle the extra stress from more power output. Like I said in another post, there will be weight tradeoffs between the different designs.

 

[DDECKER]