2011 440 ramp vs 09~10 441 ramp

[Dynamo^Joe]

Preamble; This post is intended for the purpose of "General" XP Knowledge, specific to this forum.

You can see there is a smidge of yellow paint on the 441 (09~10) ramp. That was done by a 220 lbs driver with backpack on a 09 154 and did a full throttle pull to about 45mph track speed and turned out.
09/154/20:45 gear

The reason I like to refer to 45 mph track speed is because it's kind of a speed it seems that sledders are running in somewhat setup snow, deep but good setup to pull off that kind of speed. It also seems to be a speed that many riders want to see.

Wanted to show the ramp angle from the 11 vs the 10 model.
I have no doubt that this 440 will allow quick rpms but in the final analysis, when y'all are standing at the bottom of the hill, you also have to listen to the whirl of the track. If this 11 can pull off more track speed than the 09~10 I suspect a larger element is due to chassis efficiency compared to the clutch calibration as the 11 still has the same reverse helix. When the belt gets at a certain point down in the secondary the belt clamp force is "X" amount. Same this year, same last year, same 2 years ago. If the sled can get higher track speed my opinion is by virtue of the sled being more efficient so less observed track load at the "slip point" or "equilibrium point" on the secondary sheave faces; the 440 ramp angle having enough of an angle to allow the engine to maintain rpms and not drift low.

I suspect that the engine will be quick to rev when chopping the throttle on/off however track speed increase?...I don't know. Stand there and listen to the whirl of the track.

I laid up the 440 vs some other common known ramps in one of my albums - Joe's Ramp Album.

As far as the 440 being a great ramp in a clutch kit.
Ohhhh man, I think this is going to be one of the best ramps that BRP has installed in the sled for tuners to work with.

 

[winter brew]

Our '11 came with 441's.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

If your sled come with the 441 then I suspect BRP is again compartmentalizing, separating their calibrations into 2 elevation ranges.
1st range; Sea level to 4000 feet
2nd range; 4000~10000 feet.


The 413's are for 0~4000 feet. The 441's are for 4000+
When I ship kits to Euro/Scaninavia, I always force the potential customer to pop their primary off and check the ramp #.
As an example for the 09 & 10 models shipped over there sled owners have found either 441's or 413's.
It is rare in the Scandinavian countries to sled even to 3500 feet yet some guys pop their primary off and voila....441. The only areas I see uses that are over 3500 is in Romania, Russia.

 

[toms]

Joe,

All of our spring break models have come with last years ramp as well.
Same clutch setup last year except new primary spring.

Typically Ski Doo does not do setups for either different areas or elevations. That would be the responsibility of the dealer to make the necessary changes for his customer. Some dealers do and some don't.

We ran the 440 ramp 2 years ago. Spent a lot of time with it, both on the dyno as well as on the snow Seemed like it had or maybe has some potential, but could not ever translate it out to the snow.

It might need or demand a relatively high engagement.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Hey Tom, howzit goin man? One of my test guys picked up your latest suspension for his 154. I can't wait to try it; What a beaut!

well, as far as knowing what parts are installed now, at this moment, I am officially LOST!!!!

I just plowed through the BRP microfiche and the pulley sections are updated to reflect the 441 for N.America and 413 for Europe except for this model everest e-tec

Obviously BRP has changed the parts on the microfiche from a month ago because the 4 E-tec models and 2 P-tec models all showed 440 ramp with 160/290 primary spring.

Now check this out...today the m-fiche says 412

 

[toms]

Joey,

Thanks. If you need any set up help on the skid kit let me know, I'd be happy to help out.

Yeah, sometimes ya gotta wonder what really is going on up there.

Ours so far had a pu/ pk primary. No other changes from last year.

 

[gus bohne]

the sea level sleds SO FAR have 441 too..eeeekk!!

poor ramp for the flats..415's were a poor choice for snox too.. oh well we have to get and correct the ( so close its hard to make better ) LOL set up..

Gus

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

I had guys who just like to run stock clutching in the secondary however tinker with the primary; removing the 200/320 and installed either 200/350 or 200/380 to prevent rpm loss and just tailored the flyweight for their personal application.

Always had good reports come back of these springs resolving rpm issues at higher track speeds.

 

[toms]

Gus,

Yeah that was what I said in an earlier post. Typically Ski Doo has the same setup for the sled, no matter where it is delivered or for what elevation. The dealer is required to change clutching, sometimes based off of oem recommended charts.

 

[winter brew]

The setups we are seeing are influenced by the sound and emission standard to certify the sleds.....hence the reverse helix in a mountain sled . Not the best for performance but a compromise for sure. It does keep guys like myself and joe busy!

 

[Teth-Air]

Last season we rode the E-Tec in Golden BC and we raced it uphill against several sleds. My kids 03 ZX 800 and my 08 XP both would beat it for 3/4 of the hill before it gained speed and would pass us. It felt very smooth and soft on the bottom end, but just kept gaining on the top. This was oppposite to my 08 which ripped your arms off low down and ran out of steam up top. In addition the engagement was around 4500 rpm but it sounded and felt like 3500 rpm. We all thought the clutching needed a way softer spring to lower the engagement but maybe the tourque curve is just way different for this motor?

Anyway Winter and Joe, how do you guys feel the motor characteristics are going to change the way this thing needs to be clutched? Maybe the stock helix will work this time? Or maybe the lack of grip on the belt in the secondary is going cause the belt to slip due to the higher top end hp?

 

[winter brew]

Not to hijack this thread....but IMO a reverse helix will never be the best choice, especially with bigger tracks....less belt contact area will always need more belt squeeze to lessen slippage (heat), and to improve backshift....the opposite of what a reverse helix offers.
I won't speculate as to what the E-tec will need....just waiting for snow!

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Just have to remember, only 4%~6% of registered / insured snowmobile owners in N. America dive into aftermarket.

So say 1000 sleds and its a possible maximum of 60 sled owners spend $ in aftermarket as a whole and how much would that value reflect a percentage;
Suspension...
Clutching...
Chassis...
Body...
The other 940 sled owners don't venture away from showroom stock condition.

If I remember right, Snowmobile aftermarket industry is above 1 billion, below 2 billion equivalent US$ per year.

...there is still enough for everyone, its just how you go about doing it.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

Last season we rode the E-Tec in Golden BC and Maybe the stock helix will work this time? Or maybe the lack of grip on the belt in the secondary is going cause the belt to slip due to the higher top end hp?

43 start, 47 finish.
Sled w/20:45 @ observed 8100 rpms under full throttle.
Question 1) At an example track speed of 45 mph - What angle is being used at that track speed? 43? 44? 45? 46? 47?
A) 45 degree range on the sheave surface

Question 2) Is the angle being used at that track speed different if its an 09, 10, 11 when the sled has details of 43/47, 20:45 @ observed 8100 rpms under full throttle. (yes or no)
A) No.

Just an opinion; with the enhanced power the clutch will see more load applied on one side of the helix. More efficient chassis/suspension design, the clutch will observe less load on the ground side of the helix until the sled speed reaches a velocity to where the secondary clutch will hit equilibrium and stop upshifting - at a point to where the sled speed and ground load match the engine power input; what track speed that is, I don't know.

Side by side testing 09 or 10 vs 11 would reveal fair to better data.

 

[Teth-Air]

43 start, 47 finish.
Sled w/20:45 @ observed 8100 rpms under full throttle.
Question 1) At an example track speed of 45 mph - What angle is being used at that track speed? 43? 44? 45? 46? 47?
A) 45 degree range on the sheave surface

Question 2) Is the angle being used at that track speed different if its an 09, 10, 11 when the sled has details of 43/47, 20:45 @ observed 8100 rpms under full throttle. (yes or no)
A) No.

Just an opinion; with the enhanced power the clutch will see more load applied on one side of the helix. More efficient chassis/suspension design, the clutch will observe less load on the ground side of the helix until the sled speed reaches a velocity to where the secondary clutch will hit equilibrium and stop upshifting - at a point to where the sled speed and ground load match the engine power input; what track speed that is, I don't know.

Side by side testing 09 or 10 vs 11 would reveal fair to better data.

I guess where I get confused is with that reverse helix. The way I understand it is that the second half of the helix helps aid upshift but hurts backshift due to its angle. This said if the sled has more power it is more likely to get into the second half of the helix due to higher track speed and this is where it further increases track speed (with the downside of more belt slip). Is this correct so far? Anyway I can see gearing also being very important as the gearing could also determine where the belt rides and which part of the helix is being used at a set track speed. Any idea at what track speed the stock XP hits the second angle of the helix? If i read your post, it sounds like 45 mph is mid helix? I so far agree that a staight helix sounds like the best approach but with my 08 the 42 degree helix seemed to be only good on the trail or for climbing (with clicker change) but never both.

 

[winter brew]

The difference in power won't be enough to show much more for loaded track speeds. Upshift should be primarily tuned with the primary, backshift/RPm recovery with the secondary.....of course they both effect one another, but trying to load the engine with secondary is not the best choice with big tracks and deep snow. Wide spread progressive for the hills

 

[ak]

2011 summitx 600 etec the sticker on the clutch says 440 ramps, I havent removed the clutch yet to verfiy. Joey are winterbrew is anybody going to have a clutch kit for a 600 etec? I realize there isnt much of a demand for this model.

 

[goin2dmtns]

My 2011 also has the 441 ramps.
Held out hope for a better ramp.

Anybody have any snow to get one through break-in yet to know what needs to be done for clutching?

 

[jdog1]

441 ramps and purple/pink spring in mine.

 

[Dynamo^Joe]

quotes teth-air

@Teth-Air;I guess where I get confused is with that reverse helix. The way I understand it is that the second half of the helix helps aid upshift but hurts backshift due to its angle.

---The 43/47 helix is not broken into two component angles. It has 5 separate blended angles that start at 43 degrees, then 44,45,46 and the 47 angle goes to full shift overdrive.

For a 20:45 xp with 8150 engine then each angle has a usable theoretical mph range of 17.5mph.
Start with 43 degree from 0mph to 17.5
Uses 44 degree angle from 17.5 to 35mph
Uses 45 degree angle from 35mph to 52.5mph
Uses 46 degree angle from 52.5mph to 70mph
Uses 47 degree angle from 70mph to 87.5mph

Anyway I can see gearing also being very important as the gearing could also determine where the belt rides and which part of the helix is being used at a set track speed.
---The gear ratio affects where the secondary roller is on the helix, what angle is being used on the helix at that point in time during full throttle application. Taller gearing than previous, the roller will be closer to the start angle. Lower gearing than previous, the roller will be farther down the helix path.

Any idea at what track speed the stock XP hits the second angle of the helix? If i read your post, it sounds like 45 mph is mid helix?
---As noted above.

I so far agree that a straight helix sounds like the best approach but with my 08 the 42 degree helix seemed to be only good on the trail or for climbing (with clicker change) but never both.
---Then I don't know what other evidence you have to analyze that a straight angle is best.
I also don't know what "best" is defined as.
If one can define the word "best" in this situation, then can start to work backwards at the chain of events to get you to best-situation.
Joey