-2 timing key, what would you think about results?

[backcountryislife]

Having an 09 & an 11, with the same kit, I've found that the 11 needs WAY more race fuel to run the same boost, which is getting pricey (and the airport isn't that close to us to easily fill there).

I'm thinking about putting a -2 timing key in (got a spare here from somebody who never put it in I guess) in my sled. I know it will help a little, in decreasing the octane requirements below full throttle where it's real hot, but I want to know if I'm missing the boat on something here.

Am I going to lose more bottom end than I think with this? If I'm missing something, what, and what would you recommend in this situation?

btw, the only place I've seen det is when I back off of WFO on a climb & hold it at about 3/4 for a sec to bring the front back down a touch.
Full throttle, temps are great & never get det up to 14psi with 3.5 gal of 116.

 

[knzee]

Good thing you posted this. I was out with two guys that run the CPC stage 2 yesterday. One on a 2010 one on a 2011. The 2011 was doing the same thing you just explained, to a T. He makes more power at the same psi as the 2010 but needs more octane to do it without hitting the det sensor and only happens when he lets off on a pull and gets back in it. The only thing we can figure out is the timing curve is different on the 11's causing the problem.

 

[backcountryislife]

yeah. Dale says it's 100% timing, and tough to avoid.

I think it's also due to the det sensor being more sensitive on the 11, lots of people mention having problems with oversensitive sensors. I feel that since Cutler removed & replaced my head that the torque setting is likely done to spec, so I'm not gonna mess with that.

So any input guys? I just don't want to lose bottom end just to gain the ability to run one more PSI with less fuel.

btw, I ran straight AV gas this weekend & never saw the sensor, but the airport is a long drive from here.

 

[TheBreeze]

Can you fill up 55 gallon barrels at the airport? Lower compression is always going to sacrafice throttle response.

 

[STORMY]

that's gotta suck to have a $15,000 sled and can't afford to ride it

 

[backcountryislife]

I"m not lowering compression, I'm lowering TIMING. Big difference. I can tell you that the 2 degree difference I had in my crossfire 1000 was VERY much to my advantage, it allowed me to do things to that motor that people said we couldn't do. It was great being able to go as far as I went with that motor & have reliability.

15k? HA! I WISH. We said bye bye to 15k before I even SAW the machine... and I'm not done yet. 410 lbs or so & 14 lbs of boost doesn't come cheap!

It's not about the cost actually, it's about the convenience. With the 09 I can run big boost with minimal race gas, but now that I have two running boost, and the fact that this one needs so much more race fuel, it's just a hassle dealing with the fuel. I live in the boonies, and in order to go get fuel I need to go to the city (bandimere speedway, about 100 miles from where I work) or go riding on the weekends in the places where more poeple ride instead of just riding by my house. I'd rather stay close to home & go get some race gas every other month like I did last year.

Yeah, I CAN just turn it down to 12.5 psi, which is no joke... but what the heck is the fun in that? 12 psi... so boring, yawn...


So has ANYONE else done this? Or have a reason I shouldn't do it?
There's really no cost involved, but this thing is pull & go aside from this ONE tiny issue (which as I said, is beyond what cutler says the kit should push) so the last thing I want to do is tune instead of ride.

 

[backcountryislife]

ttt

I'd really like to hear from ANYONE who has run with & without a key, to get an idea how much I'm giving away here.

The 2009 has less timing, less compression, but the bottom end on that one is all I could ask for, so I'm ok with "stepping back" to it only having a 2009 bottom end, but I don't think that's what we're talking about here, I think I'm losing more timing through the whole curve than the 2009 has, just to decrease it at this ONE point.

 

[JasonAK]

I think Jeff at Dakota Performance has set a few 2010-11 Turbos with a -2 timming key, you may want to give him a call. What are you running for clutching on your 2011? Are you happy with the bottom end now?

Jason

 

[backcountryislife]

I think Jeff at Dakota Performance has set a few 2010-11 Turbos with a -2 timming key, you may want to give him a call. What are you running for clutching on your 2011? Are you happy with the bottom end now?

Jason

When I run the 046 belt, very happy. It stands up almost instantly if I want it to for things like creek crossings & the like (or just being a dork).

With the 060, it takes a sec to spool (not the intended belt)

I'm riding 10k+ with a 38/48 helix & 75 cutler adj weights. If I was going to keep running the 060 belt, I'd likely make some changes, but the 046 works fine, just doesn't last as long for me.

 

[Catman 42]

timing

Try backing down your TPS switch a tad.

 

[pinehillscat]

Finally someone brings up the TPS!!! I have told many people that and they look at me like i am on crack!!! It works!!!!! Its a 3D timing system!!! I did that and a couple other tricks to a 2010 with a CPC stageIII and I can run 14lbs on straight 91 pump fuel and never hit the det sensor. Taking away compression will loose throttle response so you have to think outside the box

 

[TARI]

not always, you can lower compression just make sure you have a good dome design, most try to just cut back the squish which looses throttle response.
We have good dome designs with lower compression ratios, on billit heads for m8's and polaris 800 cfi's, very responsive.
2' timing key is fine as well.

 

[backcountryislife]

pinehills & catman... explain please? I've never messed with the TPS, curious what you do to it?

 

[diggerdown]

You can set a tps to the lower limits but going beyond that you will that cackle sound off idle and poor responce. I would try the key. In theroy that should give you a little more low end torque. If you look at the charts you will see that the highest torque is reached after the timing falls off.

 

[backcountryislife]

You can set a tps to the lower limits but going beyond that you will that cackle sound off idle and poor responce. I would try the key. In theroy that should give you a little more low end torque. If you look at the charts you will see that the highest torque is reached after the timing falls off.

Interesting, never thought of it that way.
I assumed that they backed down timing because they didn't need it at that point in the map, not the other way around.

 

[ondast]

Interessting!
I have a 2009 M8 with CPC stage 3, and CPC low comp head, running 50/50 Premium pumpgas and 110+ MON octane racegas (approx 100 MotorOctane when mixed) And I have Detonation code when Im coming off of WOT and then going on again. I don't notice any sounds and don't feel anything but the ecu 21 pops up sometimes.
Running 13psi at 1000 feet.
What if I put in a 2 deegre key? Any good?

 

[ifreerideus]

Interessting!
I have a 2009 M8 with CPC stage 3, and CPC low comp head, running 50/50 Premium pumpgas and 110+ MON octane racegas (approx 100 MotorOctane when mixed) And I have Detonation code when Im coming off of WOT and then going on again. I don't notice any sounds and don't feel anything but the ecu 21 pops up sometimes.
Running 13psi at 1000 feet.
What if I put in a 2 deegre key? Any good?

PUSH TURBO has been puttin a -2 timing key, in his m8 2011 turbo kits, with good results. but now that hes been doin all his own fuel mapping on the dobeck boxes, he can control on, off throttle, detonation with proper fuel mapping. he is running his own head design with no timing key, at 8-9 pounds of boost, on 100% pump gas. NO adding race gas !!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUpsyOBC-zw&tracker=False

 

[backcountryislife]

Interessting!
I have a 2009 M8 with CPC stage 3, and CPC low comp head, running 50/50 Premium pumpgas and 110+ MON octane racegas (approx 100 MotorOctane when mixed) And I have Detonation code when Im coming off of WOT and then going on again. I don't notice any sounds and don't feel anything but the ecu 21 pops up sometimes.
Running 13psi at 1000 feet.
What if I put in a 2 deegre key? Any good?

Yeah... I get a CODE... but I've only actually heard det once (hard to miss if you know what it sounds like ya know?). I think the sensor is an issue, but wither way I want to keep turning it up!

Not sure what could be done with the sensor if it's over sensitive, maybe that's the direction I should be looking at?

 

[realbass]

Hey guys!! Please help me.
I've long been following this topic and i can not find in it an answer to the question:
How can you change the timing?
and How can i do same?

Thanks.

 

[backcountryislife]

you just put a 2 deg timing key in backwards. It's a pretty easy thing, but keep in mind you pull back the WHOLE map by 2 deg, not just the hot spot that the 11 has. It seems worth it to me, I just don't want to waste the $$ in fuel.