09 D800 bog at higher air temps

[Adobe-Al]

Yesterday while riding at 9000ft. at 45 F all three d800 started cutting out and bogging (2 09d8 with updates and 1 10D8) seemed odd that we all had the same problem at the same time cleaned up as the temp went down
water temp was aroynd 125f to 130f- no one had a det sensor light either any ideas why are mapping could not adjust- this is the warmest air any of use have rode in-

 

[crashnbash]

You just seen what made so many dragon owners mad. The ecu does not compensate well for temp., and isn't perfect at compensating for high alt. either. Acording to dynotech the fuel map is close at 50 deg. and just lean in the mid range, as temp dropped the fuel map got worse. What rpm did your bogging occur at?

 

[rocket]

ECM Map

I'd have to agree about the poor temperature compensation. I'm a flatlander, but my 800 was almost unrideable because the DET system would activate repeatedly. I added the PC 5 like many did, but found as temps got warmer in spring, I had to create a second map because I was starting to get misfires in certain RPM ranges. I'd agree with DTR's findings that the map is "closer" to correct in very warm temps. My "warm weather" map is mostly 0 to +2 through the midrange, where i'm adding significant fuel in my "cold weather" map. My own experience is that while these motors are generally calibrated lean, if you add TOO MUCH fuel, they start to run poorly, misfire, bog, etc. There seems to be a pretty narrow window where they will run well. Since the ECM doesn't calibrate fuel delivery very accurately based on temperature, if your sled runs well in colder temps, it may be simply running too rich when it warms up. My own sled ran poorly in colder temps and benefitted from added fuel there - it ran better as temps warmed up. It seems the only thing consistant about CFI sleds is that they all seem to act a little differently....

 

[Adobe-Al]

The bog was between 7500 and 8000 and would clear after you blipped the throttle. None of use have a PCV, so I'm not sure if we have alot of options.I sure do miss a 5 min jet job to fix a bog. So it sounds if I get a PCV I will still have to tinker with it to get it right for all the different conditons. I understand that I'm at low air density at high elev/high temp, but this is why I bought my first EFI sled. Not to have relearn how to tune it for all the conditions!! so it sounds like a PCV is not a plug play-it has to be messed with to get the thing to run right?

 

[GKR]

Adobe-Al,
Were you all running the same fuel? If this was a one off day and all three were bad, that's what I would guess. If this is cronic then different story. With this EFI system working off four basic sensors (I think) and with the calibration variations they can all have plus TPS settings etc. maybe thats why there are so many guys sleds all running different. Not that there aren't plenty out there that work fine.
You could always test your air temp sensor in the airbox and make sure it's reading right.

 

[crashnbash]

The bog was between 7500 and 8000 and would clear after you blipped the throttle. None of use have a PCV, so I'm not sure if we have alot of options.I sure do miss a 5 min jet job to fix a bog. So it sounds if I get a PCV I will still have to tinker with it to get it right for all the different conditons. I understand that I'm at low air density at high elev/high temp, but this is why I bought my first EFI sled. Not to have relearn how to tune it for all the conditions!! so it sounds like a PCV is not a plug play-it has to be messed with to get the thing to run right?

For alot of people it's not a plug n play thing. Some companies like slp and dynotech research have maps that are very close for most. Then its up to you to make the slight adjustments to make it perfect. So far the map in mine has worked from below 0 to 45 deg., and 8000 to 11000 ft. The only big adjustments I made were at idle, because it would not idle above 9000 ft.

 

[aebsledder]

I'd have to agree about the poor temperature compensation. I'm a flatlander, but my 800 was almost unrideable because the DET system would activate repeatedly. I added the PC 5 like many did, but found as temps got warmer in spring, I had to create a second map because I was starting to get misfires in certain RPM ranges. I'd agree with DTR's findings that the map is "closer" to correct in very warm temps. My "warm weather" map is mostly 0 to +2 through the midrange, where i'm adding significant fuel in my "cold weather" map. My own experience is that while these motors are generally calibrated lean, if you add TOO MUCH fuel, they start to run poorly, misfire, bog, etc. There seems to be a pretty narrow window where they will run well. Since the ECM doesn't calibrate fuel delivery very accurately based on temperature, if your sled runs well in colder temps, it may be simply running too rich when it warms up. My own sled ran poorly in colder temps and benefitted from added fuel there - it ran better as temps warmed up. It seems the only thing consistant about CFI sleds is that they all seem to act a little differently....

Exact opposite on our sleds here. The colder it is, the better they run, especially at altitude. Probably why there is so much frustration amongst 800 owners. The Power commander has been touted as the fix all for some of the 800 runability issues, but I have not seen much evidence that would support that fact in our neck of the woods. I ride with a guy who has one and has tried the SLP and Dynotech maps with little to no gain or difference. Mine has run well after I changed my clutching and exhaust springs, but I wouldn't pull rpm's before that.

 

[slopoke]

Adobe-Al,
Were you all running the same fuel? If this was a one off day and all three were bad, that's what I would guess. If this is cronic then different story. With this EFI system working off four basic sensors (I think) and with the calibration variations they can all have plus TPS settings etc. maybe thats why there are so many guys sleds all running different. Not that there aren't plenty out there that work fine.
You could always test your air temp sensor in the airbox and make sure it's reading right.

Great question about the fuel. I was the rider on the 2010 and we all were running different fuel. I have 1000 miles on my sled without any problems before this ride and I have ridden up to 12,500 feet in elevation. Air temperature was certainly high this day (+/-45 degrees) -- much warmer than I had ever ridden before. Add to this, that when the sun set and temperatures dropped dramatically, my sled returned to running flawlessly. I am certainly no mechanic or tuner, but this all points to the air temperature as the culprit. How do you test your air temp sensor and is the pc5 the best way to help solve this problem in the future? Thanks for all the great replies.

 

[akrevrider]

Exact opposite on our sleds here. The colder it is, the better they run, especially at altitude. Probably why there is so much frustration amongst 800 owners. The Power commander has been touted as the fix all for some of the 800 runability issues, but I have not seen much evidence that would support that fact in our neck of the woods. I ride with a guy who has one and has tried the SLP and Dynotech maps with little to no gain or difference. Mine has run well after I changed my clutching and exhaust springs, but I wouldn't pull rpm's before that.

aebsledder,

What clutching & exhaust springs do you have?

I'm at 3-4K elevation with Ron's 67.5 weights/Team green in the primary, stock secondary except for two delrins. The PCV really helps my sled but have adjusted the map acouple times with Jim's help at DTR.

akrevrider

 

[aebsledder]

I run SLP MTX 68 gram weights with no rivets, 60/40/.38 Helix, Green Pink in primary, stock secondary with two delrins. I can pull between 8200 and 8300 consistently at 6-10,000 feet. I run the pink exhaust valve springs. This proved to be the "fix" for my sled. I am idling pretty low, but I am still able to get rpms under load. Did you experience a performance increase with the PCV? Or did it improve your reliability? (I guess that is a good performance increase as well)

 

[akrevrider]

ab,

To be honest my sled has always ran pretty well.

The PCV has just helped to it to run consistant & much better.

ak

 

[rocket]

ECM calibration

Exact opposite on our sleds here. The colder it is, the better they run, especially at altitude. Probably why there is so much frustration amongst 800 owners. The Power commander has been touted as the fix all for some of the 800 runability issues, but I have not seen much evidence that would support that fact in our neck of the woods. I ride with a guy who has one and has tried the SLP and Dynotech maps with little to no gain or difference. Mine has run well after I changed my clutching and exhaust springs, but I wouldn't pull rpm's before that.

I definitely agree with the idea that each of these motors has a bit different "personality". I think that is why you've seen riders getting mixed results from the "canned" maps from the various aftermarket places. It isn't that their maps are bad or don't work, its that these sleds are "all over the place" with their tuning. My maps are my own and would offer them as a "starting point" only for someone elses sled. Even among the flatlanders on other forums, we've only been able to identify "general trends" in maps for each of the different ECM flashes, not a "perfect map". So no, there really isn't a map guaranteed to cure your problems. I'm sure some of it is fuel related (various levels of ethanol), but relative humidity has an effect on what a motor wants for fuel delivery and variations in injector flow, fuel pressure, etc. play a role as well. Sometimes, these factors come together and create the "happy accident" of a sled that runs great. I know there are owners out there whose sleds seem "dead-on" with no mods at all, where others struggle to find what makes theirs work. It took me most of a season and both fuel delivery and clutching mods to find something I was satisfied with.