08 M1000 - Crazy BD Box numbers???

[mrquick68]

So my setup is in the sig below. Only mod left to put on my 1000 is the RKT kit which is sitting on my bench.

I'm having some weird issues with my BD Box #s though.

Throttle response is crisp and nice, though i have a little bog at what i think is mid throttle around 5500 to 6500 rpm, but on top it rips pretty hard. in fact i'm having a hard time getting my rpms down - had to switch back to the 060 belt, though i did finally get the rpms down when i added a chit ton of fuel to it (plug's look perfect at WOT with the numbers below).

Numbers are as follows.

3000 05 01 00 00
5000 05 02 00 00
6500 03 03 00 00
7200 00 02 02 00
7500 00 07 20 00
7800 00 09 30 00

Crazy numbers there in the top huh? That's what i had to add fuel wise to get my AF ratios down in the high twelves in a long climb.

Question here is - what gives!? Also my sled idles like a harley with a bent rod, though it likes to idle a little high, then a little low. The added 05 at idle was to make it a little more normal starting, but i don't think it was needed.

hoping for the cat dealer here to look into fuel pressure when i bring it in for a seeping diamond drive (which caused me to pull threads on the 060 i think).

Don't get me wrong though - at the numbers above i was pulling 7600 rpms and climbing in deep POW faster and harder than any of the XPs i was riding with, though the difference wasn't as great as I hoped.

Sorry for the long post, just hoping someone has some idea. It bogged stock in the same rpm's too - 5500ish at mid throttle, must noticable on the trail.

 

[mrquick68]

Ttt

 

[mtn_extreme]

Try this -

3-.....02 02 00 00
5-.....04 03 01 00
65-...02 02 03 00
72-...00 01 03 00
75-...03 05 16 00
78-...07 12 23 00


your numbers should flow into each other setting smoothly.

 

[mrquick68]

i will give those a try.

Don't you think that upper end fuel seems excessive though? SLP was saying only 14 on top and you are still saying 23. Is it possible i'm down on fuel pressure?

 

[type_a_positive]

Low fuel pressure may be it. Also, have you calibrated your A/F sensor? I have a NGK, so I am not familiar with the procedures for your sensor.

I know some swear by the 060 belt, but I have much better performance with the 046 with heavier weights for repeated climbs.

 

[mphfreak]

What elevation are u guys running these numbers at?
thanks

 

[mrquick68]

Low fuel pressure may be it. Also, have you calibrated your A/F sensor? I have a NGK, so I am not familiar with the procedures for your sensor.

I know some swear by the 060 belt, but I have much better performance with the 046 with heavier weights for repeated climbs.

Koso has no calibration feature. it just is... probably not the greatest product. Already had mine Error out. Talked to Koso this mornin' and they are working on an update...

I almost always run the 046 belt too, but was over revving with it, so slapped on 060 for a temporary solution to pull the rpms down. The 046 nets me 7800+ rpms, as well as about 3 more mph climbing. but i know i'm revving out of some power with my current clutching... I'll be installing an RKT kit this week which i'm hoping will load the motor a little more and get my right where i need to be. I've never been lucky enough to not do a little custom grinding on my weights anyway. Hoping i get close with the 046 and the RKT kit.

i ride 3 to 6k usually.

one day with the 060 and i was pulling threads though. 300 miles on the 046 and it looks perfect? Thinking the seeping DD helped kill the 060 though.

 

[SnowDevil]

mtn extr. numbers seem much closer to what I ran with a fresh air intake. I was running with egt's so your O2 might be keeping you a little on the safer side. I turbo'd my sled this year and at wide open Im running 12.5-12.9 and have had no problems.

 

[mrquick68]

mtn extr. numbers seem much closer to what I ran with a fresh air intake. I was running with egt's so your O2 might be keeping you a little on the safer side. I turbo'd my sled this year and at wide open Im running 12.5-12.9 and have had no problems.

can you post what numbers you were running? I'm hoping to have a fuel pressure measurement here soon to rule that out.

I had the bog at mid throttle around 5500 to 6500 bone stock too. only notice it on the trail - AF numbers around 12.7 or so when it bogs, and if i stay in the bog the climb up to 13.8 or so. thinking i'm cruising way too rich??? maybe my fuel pressure is too high?

When i was running close to SLP numbers on top, i was pulling the heights rpms and it felt strong, though i was over revving even at altitude in deep POW. maybe i should bring my numbers back down? Just a little concerned at my plugs looked a little lean and my AF ratios were up around 13.9 or so. Used an 060 to pull the revs back to 7700ish and AFRs were still 13.6 ish. Finally added a ton of fuel to make sure it was even working and then i got down to 12.9 but lost rpms to the tune of 7500ish. Maybe my gauge reads too high?

Grrr.

 

[SnowDevil]

what does the plugs and pistons look like?

 

[JHG]

I'm running the same Koso gauge on my M8 and I'm not sure it's always accurate. I kind of use it as a guideline but I wouldn't take what it says to the bank. I get some crazy numbers sometimes that I'm pretty sure aren't right.

 

[Woody67]

quick those are big numbers on the top end for your set up but if you can pull them why not. As for your bog you may try the stats screen on your box. I used it yesterday on a trail on the way out to clean up some low end fueling. I think some use a button to capture on the handlebar but I just rode on the trail and it tells you what rpm and lo/md/hi.

 

[smoothdawg]

What MBMS said. Never even thought of that.

 

[mrquick68]

yes - i will be doing that capture mod. i use the capture for top end measurements already, but will use the live capture when i'm trial riding to get a good picture of what's happening. I know its MID and around 5500 and 6500. I need to get my box up on the bars though... it's under the hood right now.

 

[AKkatz]

yes - i will be doing that capture mod. i use the capture for top end measurements already, but will use the live capture when i'm trial riding to get a good picture of what's happening. I know its MID and around 5500 and 6500. I need to get my box up on the bars though... it's under the hood right now.

I put my Booni. box on the left side of my bars, out of harms way but still is accessible , can't read while riding but I don't think you could read that stupid little screen anyways....BTW I've had alot of weirdness with my b. box too, but I don't have good advice to offer, actually I've removed it and am going to send it back and have them test it, and the harness. I t was dropping the Mag side injector... sweet!

 

[fastgas]

suggestions

I sent you a PM then saw this - I really wouldn't trust the Koso A/F gauge except at steady throttle conditions held for more than a second or two since it seems to respond very slowly, and the lack of calibration sort of bothers me. I prefer to use EGT's or an Innovate (when it's working).

These engines will take a lot of fuel (easily 20 numbers) before they become noticeably rich and start dropping rpms at full throttle. The mid-range is more sensitive to too much fuel, and will often need to run lean A/F numbers (like 13 to 14:1) to run smoothly. You might try reducing fuel in the 5000/6000 ranges just to see if it improves. This is always a tricky spot to tune on 2-strokes (due to the residual exhaust in the combustion chamber making it hard to ignite the fresh mixture) since if you hold the throttle in one place it can build heat and seize.

You might also try using the ACEL pump feature to remove fuel when getting on the throttle - read this thread for more description: http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117483

One other thing is that these engines will do what they have to to maintain a certain idle, so if you alter the fuel too much, the stock ECU will start to alter the injector fueling to keep it running. You usually don't need to go more than 1-3 numbers at idle.

 

[Woody67]

I sent you a PM then saw this - I really wouldn't trust the Koso A/F gauge except at steady throttle conditions held for more than a second or two since it seems to respond very slowly, and the lack of calibration sort of bothers me. I prefer to use EGT's or an Innovate (when it's working).

These engines will take a lot of fuel (easily 20 numbers) before they become noticeably rich and start dropping rpms at full throttle. The mid-range is more sensitive to too much fuel, and will often need to run lean A/F numbers (like 13 to 14:1) to run smoothly. You might try reducing fuel in the 5000/6000 ranges just to see if it improves. This is always a tricky spot to tune on 2-strokes (due to the residual exhaust in the combustion chamber making it hard to ignite the fresh mixture) since if you hold the throttle in one place it can build heat and seize.

You might also try using the ACEL pump feature to remove fuel when getting on the throttle - read this thread for more description: http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117483

One other thing is that these engines will do what they have to to maintain a certain idle, so if you alter the fuel too much, the stock ECU will start to alter the injector fueling to keep it running. You usually don't need to go more than 1-3 numbers at idle.

I have a Koso A/F gauge and my Boondocker mounted on my bars. I was dialing my 1200 in on the trail mainly 4000-6000 rpm. I found the stats screen to be readable for this. But I had to use seat of the pants and a little trial and error to get it to run how I want. For example, at about 4500 rpm steady throttle the A/F numbers would climb but I knew it was too rich for normal driving conditions. What I found on my engine set up was I pulled more fuel in the mid at 3 and 5 but needed to keep more at the lo so it would idle down correctly and not starve when you get in the handle. I do see using the A/F gauge to finish dialing in the big end on long hard pulls (when I can see better too snowy) and then take it off. Here are the mounts I use. I have them available for several bar set ups for anyone who is interested.

 

[mrquick68]

I sent you a PM then saw this - I really wouldn't trust the Koso A/F gauge except at steady throttle conditions held for more than a second or two since it seems to respond very slowly, and the lack of calibration sort of bothers me. I prefer to use EGT's or an Innovate (when it's working).

These engines will take a lot of fuel (easily 20 numbers) before they become noticeably rich and start dropping rpms at full throttle. The mid-range is more sensitive to too much fuel, and will often need to run lean A/F numbers (like 13 to 14:1) to run smoothly. You might try reducing fuel in the 5000/6000 ranges just to see if it improves. This is always a tricky spot to tune on 2-strokes (due to the residual exhaust in the combustion chamber making it hard to ignite the fresh mixture) since if you hold the throttle in one place it can build heat and seize.

You might also try using the ACEL pump feature to remove fuel when getting on the throttle - read this thread for more description: http://www.snowest.com/forum/showthread.php?t=117483

One other thing is that these engines will do what they have to to maintain a certain idle, so if you alter the fuel too much, the stock ECU will start to alter the injector fueling to keep it running. You usually don't need to go more than 1-3 numbers at idle.

Actually, when mashing the throttle to the bar no matter what elevation i'm at or rpm - my sled freakin' rips. The problems i'm having are just the mid range bog that only happens when i SLOWLY role into that region of fueling and the oddly high numbers on top.

I'm getting a better understanding here of the problems, which is quite helpful. I think i'm just too rich in mid range as there is no popping or sputter, just a slowing of the acceleration and BOGGGG. Even when i'm in the BOG i can mat the throttle and i'm off in a wheelie. I'm not too far off - just this mid range finickiness is getting me down. Wish i could go jump on the sled right now and do some more tuning. It's raining like a SOB in our mountains right now so i won't be up there for another week or so. All the more time to get the clutching setup, build a bar mount, and put some new numbers in the BD box to try out.

thanks for the help guys.

Also, i somehow messed up which belt i was running and actually pulled cords on the 046, NOT the 060. Hmmm.

 

[mrquick68]

more info to report:

Just talked to the dealer and here is the following info:

1. DD was leaking - the resealed it, hopefully OK now.
2. using their alignment bar (don't really trust them) my clutching is out alignment, and the secondary needs to move in as i thought. problem is that it can't move in. Dealer is calling Cat to ask advice on how to fix this???
3. fuel pressure checked and it's on the low side. 42.9psi. Probably the reason for my high numbers up top on BD box.
4. Idle was raised a touch as it was set too low.
5. Hoping to hear back from dealer soon.

Impressed by their service so far.

They were going to get back to me soon about a CEL my sled threw as well as what to do about the alignment. hoping to score a new belt too.

 

[mrquick68]

any more thoughts on my high numbers now that i know my fuel pressure is only 42.9?

Wouldn't that cause the excessively high numbers up top?