IQ Chassis - Rear Suspension Options

[AndrettiDog]

More discussion until the snow flies...

I put the older style Holz on my 2007 D7 and really liked it. It was actually heavier than the stock suspension (it had zero pros with springs) but I got rid of my torsion springs. Now I have a 2009 D8 and I have realized that the stock suspension on that sled is crap. The torsion springs are out of the stone age and there is very little rebound or "hit" for big bumps. It really only serves as a lightweight powder package. I don't go "huge" but I like to get up a little and I want more rebound. So...

1.) Buy the Holz Alpha. This is really expensive. I like the Float with the rebound. That is right up my alley, but $2500 for rear suspension is not. The lightweight rails that come with it are not much different than my stock rails.

2.) Timbersled. I know some guys like this system, but I can't help but think that it won't compare to the Holz. Plus there is no rebound in the Fox Floats. I won't save a lot of weight, but it would be half the price of the Alpha rear and do better than the stock skid.

3.) Holz Rear Shock Kit. This would be an option to replace the soft WE's on my stock skid and use my stock lightweight (Polaris' words, not mine) rails. These are not the Fox Float shocks with rebound, but the Fox Zero's instead. In theory, I won't have the transfer that the other aftermarket skids provide, but does it matter that much? 1/2 the price of the Timbersled and 1/3 of the price of the Alpha.

4.) EZ Ryde. I don't know much about these and have never ridden this setup. Looks heavy, but the numbers show that this skid is about the same as the stock, which is light. For this much money ($2400), I would likely go with the Holz Alpha.

Other options? I def. can't exceed $2500 and that is a stretch. I want to eliminate my torsion springs. The mere squeal of those springs bums me out. I'm a all mountain rider that does mostly boondocking and loves the occasional small-medium cornice drops and booters.

 

[XC700116]

To tell the truth if you liked the Holz in you 07 I'd pick up one of the bazillion original Holz skids in the swap dirt cheap, if it's for an edge the only difference is that you need to trim the cross shafts and tubes on the torque arms 1/4" per side. not a major undertaking. Send the shocks to Holz for a revalve for your style and weight along with a rebuild for about $150 and slap it in.

HOWEVER if your skid is the 09 155 you will need different rails from an 08, 07, or ice age because the "lightweight" 155 rails are cut out too much in the rear for the torque arm setback that is required for the Holz skid. The 09 163 rails will accept the Holz without a problem.

Should you decide to go this route and need rails, I have a set or rails with about 20 miles on them off an 08 that I'd trade you straight up. I have the entire stock skid sitting in the garage with plans to sell it so if someone needs the rails I'll trade.

 

[mountainhorse]

Bug... The stock 09 Dragon skid that I weighed was in at right around 53.2 lbs. with no bogies in it

The Holz with the zero pros was around 46.5.

My Holz (pre Alpha) and Fox floats was 41.25 lbs.

All in 155" length.

The rebound adjustment, to me, is not that important... I like the adjustable compression better... which I had on a previous Holz with the add on clicker reservoir.

What charteristic are you talking about for rebound?? Rebound doesn't seem to match your description.

The 155" Ez Ryde weighed in at 41.0 lbs with the 3 wheel rear idler setup on it.

The 2010 Timbersled skid is MUCH refined in it's third year out with some good changes for reliabiliy.The Mtn Tamer-X package, the rear shock has rebound adjustment, main air spring adjustment, and High and low speed compression adjustemt.

The new Alpha-X, on the rear shock has rebound adjustment, main air spring adjustment, evol chamber adjustment, and High and low speed compression adjustemt. Thats a lot of adjustment.

The Zero Pros from Holz/Carls are a great upgrade, with compression adjustment but you still have the torsion spring design as with stock.

I've heard good things about the K-mod rear and Nextech rear torsion spring conversion to the Floats.

 

[AndrettiDog]

I'm referring to the fact that the stock skid does not "rebound" effectively. The shocks soak up the hits (and often bottom out). That leaves a lot of work on the torsion springs.

I got a PM from Silber on the Timbersled. He told me I could upgrade to the Fox Float X shock on that package. I'd like to ride that suspension.

 

[F-Bomb]

Bug are you going to the Denver Snow Show this fall? If it would help, stop by the Better Boards booth and you can take a close up look at the Fox Evol fronts and the Alpha-X rear suspension in our 09 RMK IQ RAW demonstrator sled. I can tell you about my experiences with this package. I'm a huge advocate of both the Alpha-X and the Evol shocks after this past season's use/experience.

 

[BadAftertaste]

I think there is a bit of liberal use of the term 'rebound' here, and it's tough to get a clear view of the issue you're having. It kinda sounds like you have a problem with the skid bottoming too much, but rebound dampening has nothing to do with the compression motion of the shock/spring. Rebound references the extension of the shock/spring.

So, is it bottoming too much?

 

[mountainhorse]

Bug... you are referring to Compression control (valving and adjustment)....

For 2010, the Timbersled will have the OPTION of coming with a Float X. this shock has compresion and rebound adjustment but does not have the EVOL chamber. It will have DSC (Dual Speed Control).

According to Allen, owner of Timbersled, The Mountain Tamer suspension does not need the EVOL chamber... and that an EVOL chamber would be counter productive in the function of the Monuntain Tamer skid.

For most riders, the Float shock that is standard on the Mountain Tamer is the best ballance of weight/performance and cost. It is good to have options and to make the choice of features and price you want included in your skid.

As F-Bomb pointed out, the Holz Alpha-X is an excellent suspension and has a lot of adjustments that allow it to be tailored to the rider.

In a conversation that I had with Mark Holz at the Puyallup show last year, as well as Nate Zollinger (Z-Broz)... too many adjustmet options can actually put a lot of riders with little or no tuning experience in an area that has the performance lacking in a suspension... for some, adjstments are great... for others, too many adjustments gets them out of the "zone" of good performance and takes someone with the tuning knowledge/experience to bring the suspension back into the performance category that they paid for.

In the right hands, the ALPHA-X is a high performance suspension.

Here is some info from Fox manual(s) on the topic [cut/paste]

REBOUND DAMPING
Rebound damping controls the rate at which the shock returns after it has been compressed. The proper rebound setting is a personal preference, and changes with rider weight, riding style and conditions. A rule of thumb is that rebound should be as fast as possible without kicking back and driving the bars into the rider’s hands.

Symptoms of Too Much Rebound Damping

It gets harsh and hard to control when hitting series of medium or large rolling bumps at high speed. First few bumps in the series don’t seem bad, but after that it gets harsh and it seems like you run out of suspension travel.

Too much rebound damping prevents the suspension from extending quickly enough before hitting the next bump (this is called packing). after the fifth or sixth bump, you may have minimal travel left.

COMPRESSION DAMPING
Compression damping controls the rate at which the shock compresses when it encounters a bump. The proper compression setting is a personal preference and changes with rider weight, riding style and conditions.

The compression knob is located on the oil reservoir.

Symptoms of Too Much Compression Damping
It is harsh over small bumps. Shock seems to stay almost rigid instead of absorbing bumps. Especially noticeable on downhill bumps.

It is harsh at high speeds over large or medium bumps. The shock stays too rigid and does not use enough travel to absorb bumps. The shock rarely or never seems to bottom-out, even off the biggest jumps.

Symptoms of Too Little Compression Damping
The shock bottoms-out on medium-sized bumps and at the bottom of deep, smooth gullies, or rising portions of deep, rolling whoops.
At high speed it takes medium square-edged bumps smoothly, but bottoms out too easily on larger bumps. Bottoms out too easily off jump and at high speeds over large square-edged bumps.

DSC (Dual Speed Compression)

Introduction
In an effort to continuously improve upon our products we have developed a new DSC
(dual speed compression) adjuster for your Fox Racing Shox. This new DSC adjuster
along with the entire shock system will allow you to fine tune your ride to a wider
range of riding conditions.

What the Compression Adjustments Do

The LSC (low speed compression) adjuster primarily affects the compression damping during slow suspension movements such as g-outs or smooth jump landings. It also affects traction and the harshness or plushness of the vehicle (note that low-speed has nothing to do with the speed of the vehicle!).

The HSC (high speed compression) adjuster mainly affects the compression damping during medium to fast suspension movements such as steep jump faces, harsh flat landings and aggressive whoops. The goal is to run as little high-speed compression damping as possible without bottoming.

 

[F-Bomb]

Eric...to further our discussion.....

I think that the real beauty and value of the Holz ALPHA-X is it's complete rider select tune ability. You get to pick how you want it to react. It's a rare suspension package that can do all things exceptionally or have the geometrical and engineered design parameters to allow it the capability to do all things exceptionally. We know that there are extreme differences from vehicle to vehicle (weight, hp, traction). The ability to make adjustments is paramount from situation to situation both in the vehicle, the suspension system installed, and in the conditions of the day for a given vehicle.

Rather then omitting the benefit of adjustability that in my mind is one of the huge positives I'd like to see the manufacturer offer indepth written and easily available information on what the adjustments do. Kind of like the example that you show from Fox's manual. For example: If your sled does this... then an adjustment here... with this aspect....will result in this change. Mine was prototype plus the knowledge gained from experience beyond the basic starting setup makes me a more valuable advisor (remember there are tons of applications and one size does not fit all)...but more foundation would have been a nice benefit for my experience. Of course in order for such things to be valuable the consumer has to actually read and applicate the instructions!

 

[AndrettiDog]

Ok, I have a good grasp of what my issue is, but didn't relay the information very well.

My stock suspension does bottome out fast. In addition to that...it does not rebound well over small bumps. So what happens is that I take the first couple bumps ok (shock is compressing), but in the "whoops" it continues to get worse because the shock doesn't have enough time to rebound before the next bump.

Anyway, I looking for a better suspension package over the existing stock package that I have. The compression and rebound dampening just suck.

Rob - I'll definetely stop by your booth this fall. I came by last year as well. I'll likely be bugging you for our Snow Drags Sponsorship as well

 

[PooSlinger]

Do yourself a favor and check out the EZ Ryde. Better trail ride than the M-10 and climbs like a mountain goat.

 

[KAWGRN]

I chose the Timbersled this year becaus under boost I couldnt control ski lift with my other suspensions with the timber I will be able to dial in exactly how much I get...

 

[rmkboxer]

I'm putting a alpha x suspension under my 09 dragon along with the camo extreme. can't wait for snow

 

[AndrettiDog]

I'm putting a alpha x suspension under my 09 dragon along with the camo extreme. can't wait for snow

I hear you on the snow. I just did the Camo Extreme a couple weeks ago and the sled looks brand new sitting there just waiting for the snow.

I'm hoping money will allow for the Alpha X . I'd like to try the EZ Ryde and Timbersled though. I wish I could demo all three on a Dragon.

 

[pwdrhogRMK800]

I'm putting a alpha x suspension under my 09 dragon along with the camo extreme. can't wait for snow

X2 on my 797, just got the track yesterday and the Alpha X is on the way!

 

[rmkboxer]

X2 on my 797, just got the track yesterday and the Alpha X is on the way!

I couldn't pass up the deal, I purchased the suspension, track and avid drivers for $2200. with only 250 miles on them

 

[corpeleven]

Not trying to hijack but quick question:

Are the track shocks (front and rear) the same eye to eye on an 07 600 155 and an 08 Dragon and 09 Dragon? Looking to replace my stock nitrex shocks with the WE ones off the Dragon but want to make sure they will fit. Thanks guys.

 

[F-Bomb]

If we get enough guys around here riding the Holz Racing ALPHA-X rear skid we'll start up a help and information post so that there is some info sharing going on. That might be helpful for those contemplating a purchase and even more so for those that have one but aren't getting the most from it.

There are a lot of variables to deal with so quality input from lots of sources will be super valuable.

Bug I'm sure we will participate in your drag race sponsorship. See me at Denver for the details. Also Denver is the one show that Durmas attends so you can get the run down on the EZ Ryde there as well. He seemed to be repping that setup last year. The few times I got to try that in an IQ RAW RMK there were various geometrical issues going on. I'm thinking it was alot more installation and application error on this sled as it was a new product for that builder. Other's seem happy and racers are for sure having good luck. ( of course that doesn't nec. mean anything to the free ride community )

I've been around several of the Timbersled skids in different applications (high HP heavy 4-stroke turbos) and after some minor bugs those seemed to work well. Alan is a very sharp cookie and great all around guy so I'm betting that will be a great application too. I'm going to bogart some of his time at the shows to get a bit more education on his suspension and I also hope to get with Jeremy Kinzer this winter so that we can compare the two products in similar chassis.

corpeleven..I assume you already have some walker shocks laying around essentially free that you are considering installing? If they are free, already rebuilt or brand new, throw em in. They cross over. But if you are considering buying them or you have used them over 400 miles you should seriously consider spending some money and going fox zero pros as your replacements. HUGE long short and long term performance and hassle (which really means potential cost) benefits to the zero pros. Carls Performance was running some great deals on zero pros a while back and might still have some left. ( a not horribly expensive but notible performance shock package that you can do for this application )

 

[alsled]

Ok, I have a good grasp of what my issue is, but didn't relay the information very well.

My stock suspension does bottome out fast. In addition to that...it does not rebound well over small bumps. So what happens is that I take the first couple bumps ok (shock is compressing), but in the "whoops" it continues to get worse because the shock doesn't have enough time to rebound before the next bump.

Anyway, I looking for a better suspension package over the existing stock package that I have. The compression and rebound dampening just suck.

Rob - I'll definetely stop by your booth this fall. I came by last year as well. I'll likely be bugging you for our Snow Drags Sponsorship as well

I see one big problem with the iq rear skids that cause what your feeling.

The rear suspension is mounted in the holes below the floorboard, actually the only holes.

The edge suspension had a set of holes below the tunel that when put in that spot the skid worked poorlly.
What I did on my Iq is moved the holes up 2 inches in the rear, this put the skid more parallel to the ground.

I notced the iq would instantlly set in and hit the rear sissor stops, and with mine being a 136 the front of the rail wasn't even touching the ground because the back end was dropped so far. But this distance eaissly compressed till it hit the rear stop.

This location on the iq probably has a lot to do with why it steers hard.

I did have to cut the tunnel and tip it up like a edge tunnel so the track would not hit.

Just need snow to see how it works

Then again I'm a flatlander so I can't say this will work for the steep and deep.

Question, all the aftermarket skids, where do they bolt into the tunnel? stock location or higher up in the tunnel?

 

[corpeleven]

Thanks Rob.

I don't have them yet, would be paying $200 for them. Main reason I was wanting to get them was to be able to drop a little weight and hopefully gain a bit of performance. Sounds like it may not be the best use of my money. Appreciate the advice!

 

[MOWER800]

video

heres a vid link to help some people understand alittle more about rear suspentions

http://www.timbersled.com/MtnTamerTechVideo.htm