yup, another drive belt fairlure

pura vida · Jan 3, 2013

my drive belt failed today. have a total of 75 miles on the sled. found it as we where getting ready to leave in the morning. one cog completely torn and starting on a second one. missed a great day riding. luckily i found it before riding and didn't ruin anyone's day, besides mine. best i can tell there is no run out on either pulley. at least not that can be seen.

the real issue is i now have absolutely no confidence in the system. i know how i rode the sled for the first 75 miles and it was definitely easier than then what i will be ridden as the year continues. not really sure what to do, as i don't see how putting on a new belt will end with better results. i'm seriously considering installing a chaincase. what i really don't understand is why there seems to be somewhat of a significant failure rate but yet others have hundreds of abusive miles without issue??? i'll talk to my dealer tomorrow, do a little research, and see what i decide to do. i'll keep it updated.

pv

geo · Jan 3, 2013

Did you not just post how you broke your sled in? Maybe the first 25 miles is critical?

pura vida · Jan 3, 2013

what do you mean? the first 25 miles was 100% trail with short sections WOT. pretty much exactly how they tell you to do it. the next 25 was in deep snow but with short blasts of hard riding with long times spent digging myself or my buddies out. again, from what i understand pretty close to exactly what they want with the heat/cool cycles. the last 25 was almost entirely trail miles again. no hard hits. no super heavy extended loading. imo, not ridden very hard at all yet.

pv

ak · Jan 3, 2013

pura vida said:
what do you mean? the first 25 miles was 100% trail with short sections WOT. pretty much exactly how they tell you to do it. the next 25 was in deep snow but with short blasts of hard riding with long times spent digging myself or my buddies out. again, from what i understand pretty close to exactly what they want with the heat/cool cycles. the last 25 was almost entirely trail miles again. no hard hits. no super heavy extended loading. imo, not ridden very hard at all yet.

pv

Did hatcher pass polaris warranty your belt?

Always war · Jan 3, 2013

pura vida said:
what do you mean? the first 25 miles was 100% trail with short sections WOT. pretty much exactly how they tell you to do it. the next 25 was in deep snow but with short blasts of hard riding with long times spent digging myself or my buddies out. again, from what i understand pretty close to exactly what they want with the heat/cool cycles. the last 25 was almost entirely trail miles again. no hard hits. no super heavy extended loading. imo, not ridden very hard at all yet.

pv

When talking to a couple of dealer about belt break-in, they were very adamant about no WOT on trails. Not even short bursts. They said that WOT was ok in the powder, but to let the belt cool often. So, I'm assuming that track speed has a lot to do with breaking in these belts. WOT on the trail, you can see track speeds from 70 to 80 MPH. In the powder you see track speeds substantially lower. I followed these instruction, and so far belt is doing fine with 250 miles on it. I hope you have better luck with the next belt. Piece

suitcase · Jan 3, 2013

Hate to hear this!

The break in of the QD belt should be followed as the polaris specs say. A rider has to be patient in this process. I put 50 miles on my sled during the break in, I won't say I never ran it wide open. But I never did it quick, I always eased into the troutle even though I so wanted to grab a hand full. I have over 300 miles on mine, and lets just say Im running some big HP #'s . No issues, and the belt looks flawless. I inspect every morning before riding. I also never really put the belt under a big load untell I had over a 100 miles on it. There are many sleds that came from my dealer that have not had any issues, and alot of those sleds are running big HP as well.

It only takes two good road rides to get 50 plus miles of easy riding in. Is everyone giving this belt drive break in, it full attention. Or are we just reguarding the QD belt just like we do the drive belt. Throw it on and go! I know I have done this same thing many times.

If you are to take a new QD belt and compare it to a used one with 50 plus miles on it you can see the difference. These belts have to have the heat cycles to adhear things together in the belt. IMO a used QD belt looks and feels like a belt should. A new one Does not, they are almost brittle!

I'm just not understanding why some of the riders are having such bad luck with these belts! Im not picken, Im just talken! Is There anything that could be done different, to help with this problem..??

Leaf27 · Jan 3, 2013

Maybe every sled has a different run out. Some might be lucky and some not.

I find it hard to believe that these belts are so finicky.

metallicat · Jan 3, 2013

I agree with suitcase. How many people have actually held a new QD belt in their hands? I bought a new spare to have when i picked up my sled. they definately don't feel like a "belt". They feel like hard plastic. I can definately see where it is crucial to put these through the proper heat cycles.

I cannot speak for myself yet as i only have 10 miles on my sled. Not looking forward to having to break in the belt but I do honestly believe that IF it is done correctly, it will last a long time. I also believe there are SOME sleds out there that have runout issues but i think the majority of these are improper break in. Just my opinion.....

winter brew · Jan 3, 2013

All I know about the QD belt...I know of a few that have been ridden hard from the first mile, one with a 3" track and others with turbos and they have had no problems. I also know of more guys that have followed the break in and babied it and have had multiple failures.
I do not buy the break in procedure, it doesnt make sense. How do the lugs somehow become stronger with use?? They dont....its an excuse to buy time until they have an answer, IMO.
I have also installed a belt (track swap) without white cotton gloves, forced the belt on.....treated it like a red headed stepchild to get the pulleys back on and it still looks good.
Bad belts? Bad pulleys or runout??? Hopefully they have a answer soon, winter is short!!

Jaynelson · Jan 3, 2013

I know over the years when we installed new timing belts in vehicles we made the owners adhere to a very strict break-in period. Oh wait, that was.....never.

Logically the break in doesn't make sense to me either. Not saying its a bad idea...but is it really the difference between it stripping right away or lasting thousands of miles?? Can't see it. It has to be more to do with variances in runout, belt length, quality, c to c distance, pulleys getting waaay to hot, impacts. Any or all of that makes more sense than lack of break in.

PaulAnd · Jan 4, 2013

It would be physically impossible for me to break in the belt drive properly.... I only got 10 miles on my C3 belt break-in before I Broke!

milehighassassin · Jan 4, 2013

Has anyone considered removing the belt after delivery and cleaning it with water a mild soap and a wire brush similar to how many clean a clutch belt? Getting the drum agent off seems like a good idea to avoid cog clogging and making a mess on the gears.

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metallicat · Jan 4, 2013

My thought is maybe there is a chemical reaction that takes place within the belt once it goes through the proper heat cycles and changes the composition slightly?? Just because it is similar to a timing belt or something of that sort wouldn't necessarily mean it is made of the exact same components. Just throwing it out there. Food for thought?

edavis0202 · Jan 4, 2013

The belts are plastic base material, not a rubber compound…so obviously when plastic heats up and cools it bonds together. WOT on trails is hard on belts because the amount of torque being stress on the belt as opposed to deep fluffy snow. Ease into the throttle and varied throttle will be the best way to break in these belts with 10-15mins ride time at the most. I did this last week and the inside of belt looks a lot different than when it was new, the are clogs set in set it better and dull instead of shinny.<O

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Your buddy’s will understand when they don’t have to tow you back mid day…<O

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winter brew · Jan 4, 2013

Are these belts even getting warm?? I understand they get some heat from the brake and the silencer/underhood heat but from what I can tell they generate almost zero of their own heat....just another reason I don't buy a "break-in" having any influence on belt life.
I saw some rubber/belt dust after the first ride (20 miles) but after that it seems to run clean.
Being a cast part, are there possibly some sharp or mis-shapen edges on any of the pulley teeth??

rmscustom · Jan 4, 2013

My top pulley gets very warm, I cant hardly hold my hand on it. Its coming from the brake rotor that gets so hot snow sizzles on it.

geo · Jan 4, 2013

PV, I was referring to this;

first ride i had was 25 miles of trail. warmed the motor and moving parts up and then pretty much HAMMERED down the trail. personally i felt this was a perfect break in ride as the trail was fast and smooth with the perfect amount of snow for traction and cooling without a huge snow load on the entire drive train. did many hard pulls WFO for short periods of time. imo, this built good cylinder pressure to properly seat the rings to the cylinders without over loading the drive system. (sled ran amazing btw considering it was brand new. was pulling 8200-8300 all day. granted it was a very short day)

MO is this is the worst case scenario for a plastic item, sitting behind an exhaust can, that needs a few heat cycles to cure.
Dropping the sled off the back of the truck into 3`of powder with the sled working full throttle to spin too big a track at 45mph and snow getting into everywhere is a better case scenario. Again MO, but I wouldn`t do it that way either.

There has to be variables from production and that is why Poo asks for 100miles of care, the worst case scenario ones. Some will be perfect,
My sled felt broken in at 70miles (rolled along easier, less belt temps) but I took it easy (roll on and off throttle) still on the next ride to 118miles and again it felt like it coasted easier.
Next ride was completely off trail and a lot of throttle to make deep trenches up the hills and "crop circles" `cause it`s fun lol. At 162 miles now and the sled pulled off the truck easier at home. The other thing I noticed after that day is the belt seemed tighter on the pulleys. Heat shrink tubing lol?

I don't think Poo is buying time with the break-in request. They might just know something about their design. I think we should give them that this year at least.

If I get 2000 miles on this belt I will be surprised 'cause I need to gear this thing down. The Doo's are having a hard time keeping up lol. Nice sled.

Einar74 · Jan 4, 2013

The biggest questions for me regarding these drive train issues on the 2013 pro´s.

#1 Way is Polaris making such critical part of the machine as the drive train so weak?
Is the answer only to save a little bit of weight on the cost of reliability?

#2 Is it realistic to think( by manufacturer) that a owner of a powersport machine with a valueble free-time will nurse the drive belt for maybe a hole weekend, big parts of snowmobilers ride 4-5 weekends a year?

I have never owned a brand new sled, but have owned sports cars and sport bikes( 1000 gsxr) and I have never followed the break-in more than maybe take it easy for one tank and never had any problems. Many sport bike owner don´t do any break-in and never have any problems( just say the motor is reved to redline at the factory so way should I need to break it in). Many tuners just brake-in engines at the dyno!

I would think breaking-in a mountain snowmobile with maybe no possibility to trail ride will be much harder then road machines.

So if it´s a must to brake these belts in before use. Polaris( or Gates) should just have machine to break the belts in before the sled is delivered to the buyer.

#3 I have never heard of a broken driveshaft in a snowmobile. If the previous designed worked fine, why design a 2 piece driveshaft with the possibility of a failure?
The driveshaft is such a critical piece that I would think it is no way to justify a weight loss of some grams and have the owner stuck with no way out in the backcountry. Also I think I read a threat that the jackshaft has been braking or bending, that is a hollow tube also. Why?

So may conclusion is that it´s no way to justify weight loss over reliability in the drive train on a snowmobile that is usually in use somewhere far from the workshop.

I personally have never been stranded with a broken drive train on a sled. My 2005 M7 with Diamond drive witch I had for 4 winters had zero issues with the drive train and hopefully my 2011 m8 will go as well with the upgraded bearing installed already.

Maybe the Diamond drive is the most reliable drive train?. Just change oil once a year and you are good to go. I personally think that hp loss in the diamond drive gear system is within limits in return of the gear driven strength.

edavis0202 · Jan 4, 2013

Einar74 said:
The biggest questions for me regarding these drive train issues on the 2013 pro´s.

#1 Way is Polaris making such critical part of the machine as the drive train so weak?
Is the answer only to save a little bit of weight on the cost of reliability?

#2 Is it realistic to think( by manufacturer) that a owner of a powersport machine with a valueble free-time will nurse the drive belt for maybe a hole weekend, big parts of snowmobilers ride 4-5 weekends a year?

I have never owned a brand new sled, but have owned sports cars and sport bikes( 1000 gsxr) and I have never followed the break-in more than maybe take it easy for one tank and never had any problems. Many sport bike owner don´t do any break-in and never have any problems( just say the motor is reved to redline at the factory so way should I need to break it in). Many tuners just brake-in engines at the dyno!

I would think breaking-in a mountain snowmobile with maybe no possibility to trail ride will be much harder then road machines.

So if it´s a must to brake these belts in before use. Polaris( or Gates) should just have machine to break the belts in before the sled is delivered to the buyer.

#3 I have never heard of a broken driveshaft in a snowmobile. If the previous designed worked fine, why design a 2 piece driveshaft with the possibility of a failure?
The driveshaft is such a critical piece that I would think it is no way to justify a weight loss of some grams and have the owner stuck with no way out in the backcountry. Also I think I read a threat that the jackshaft has been braking or bending, that is a hollow tube also. Why?

So may conclusion is that it´s no way to justify weight loss over reliability in the drive train on a snowmobile that is usually in use somewhere far from the workshop.

I personally have never been stranded with a broken drive train on a sled. My 2005 M7 with Diamond drive witch I had for 4 winters had zero issues with he drive train and hopefully my 2011 m8 will go as well with the upgraded bearing installed already.

Maybe the Diamond drive is the most reliable drivestrain?. just change oil one a year and you are good to go. I personally think that hp loss in the diamond drive gear system is within limits in return of the gear driven strength.

1. The belts aren’t weak, these are the same belts used on many motorsport applications.
2. You don’t need to nurse this belt, I rode hard for 3 days and always kept in mind how I was controlling the throttle on different snow conditions<O

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>
3. If your babying the motor during breaking, then all you’re doing is making a weaker engine by allowing blow by on the pistons…they need to be driven hard and under load so the rings set properly…this has been covered many times<O

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4. The problem with the driveshaft is the glue bonding, may have been a bad batch of massed produced glue…no way to control quality control while out sourcing a product…they have been gluing driveshaft’s on big HP cars for awhile now.<O

</O

5. The diamond drive went through many nightmares in 07 with the M8’s and M1000’s, the reason why you seen so many aftermarket companies coming out with solutions.<O

</O

<O

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winter brew · Jan 4, 2013

Einar74 said:
The biggest questions for me regarding these drive train issues on the 2013 pro´s.

#1 Way is Polaris making such critical part of the machine as the drive train so weak?
Is the answer only to save a little bit of weight on the cost of reliability?

#2 Is it realistic to think( by manufacturer) that a owner of a powersport machine with a valueble free-time will nurse the drive belt for maybe a hole weekend, big parts of snowmobilers ride 4-5 weekends a year?

I have never owned a brand new sled, but have owned sports cars and sport bikes( 1000 gsxr) and I have never followed the break-in more than maybe take it easy for one tank and never had any problems. Many sport bike owner don´t do any break-in and never have any problems( just say the motor is reved to redline at the factory so way should I need to break it in). Many tuners just brake-in engines at the dyno!

I would think breaking-in a mountain snowmobile with maybe no possibility to trail ride will be much harder then road machines.

So if it´s a must to brake these belts in before use. Polaris( or Gates) should just have machine to break the belts in before the sled is delivered to the buyer.

#3 I have never heard of a broken driveshaft in a snowmobile. If the previous designed worked fine, why design a 2 piece driveshaft with the possibility of a failure?
The driveshaft is such a critical piece that I would think it is no way to justify a weight loss of some grams and have the owner stuck with no way out in the backcountry. Also I think I read a threat that the jackshaft has been braking or bending, that is a hollow tube also. Why?

So may conclusion is that it´s no way to justify weight loss over reliability in the drive train on a snowmobile that is usually in use somewhere far from the workshop.

I personally have never been stranded with a broken drive train on a sled. My 2005 M7 with Diamond drive witch I had for 4 winters had zero issues with the drive train and hopefully my 2011 m8 will go as well with the upgraded bearing installed already.

Maybe the Diamond drive is the most reliable drive train?. Just change oil once a year and you are good to go. I personally think that hp loss in the diamond drive gear system is within limits in return of the gear driven strength.

I would guess the main reason the driveshaft is made the way that it is, is cost. Hex stock, hack off a length and press in the end pieces....cheaper and quicker than the formed and welded steel shaft. The weight difference is less than 8oz so I doubt it was for weight. Definatly not for durability. Perhaps the Bean counters might be calling the shots more than they should be???
If this break-in is THAT critical, then Polaris either needs to program the ECM to hold back power for a set time like Doo, or mfr. the belts in a manner that they don't need to be cycled to meet their design parameters (which I will never believe is true)

yup, another drive belt fairlure

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