Chopping rails on IQ's for extros?

What kind of tension are you running.... Stock tension or just a tad looser is best...

LOOSE TRACKS W/CHOPPED RAILS = STABBING

you need to run anti-stab wheels no questions asked because you have to cut the rails all the way back to the limiter straps to clear the drivers.

Cut the rails and add anti stab, it is easy and the safest gauranteed way to go.

My700

I cut 1.5 inches off the rails, drilled new holes for the factory plastic pcs to fit back on, then used an angle grinder with sanding disc att to reshape and the plastics. Re installed them, then installed antistab axle assy. Should work perfectly(I hope)

Vertical said:

Now that you say it i think he was running it very loose. So do you gain any performance by running extros with the track that tight? Cause then there are way to many people running their tracks extremely loose!

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Think about it, with all the power going to the track it loosens up like crazy on the bottom and it tight as a banjo across the top.

There were some die hard grass dragger guys that did some pretty extensive timed testing while changing track tension. consistantly ran quicker times with a tighter track sue to it not binding or rippling up making a better approch angle and getting better traction!

mattymac said:

Think about it, with all the power going to the track it loosens up like crazy on the bottom and it tight as a banjo across the top.

There were some die hard grass dragger guys that did some pretty extensive timed testing while changing track tension. consistantly ran quicker times with a tighter track sue to it not binding or rippling up making a better approch angle and getting better traction!

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Exactly & there have been articles over the years making this same point. How many add extros so that they can run the track looser?

Track tension changes when you add a rider to the sled & the rear axle drops reducing tension. A track is too tight only when you have "rolling resistance" from track tension. The void created by cutting the rails also reduces efficiency as the track attempts to follow the driver making an inefficient loop. Many installing Avids are wasting their money IMO. Don't confuse lack of lubrication in the snow for a tight track. Some "freeze dried" snow has low moisture & consequently low lubrication even with scratchers down.

Seems to me that the new center extro on 163 Dragons is the best of both worlds for a long track. Never once did my track ratchet under load last year & only a couple of times braking when the track was too loose. (Kind of an early warning system) The reason the center extro is less effective braking is primarily a function of the smaller size of the extro tooth vs the larger track window. The tooth is closer to the front of the track window so it seems to stop ratcheting under load, but farther from the window in the rear so it can ratchet braking in hard snow. (Extro measures 1" vs track window 1.775".)

Extro's are almost like an "Urban Legend" that feeds on itself. There may be some justification for extro's on high HP sleds with longer tracks but...has anyone but the factories done adequate testing to know for certain? Just maybe Polaris has done their homework on this one?

Not trying to say that extro's are bad for everyone but ask the question-are they right for your application?

Ron said:

Exactly & there have been articles over the years making this same point. How many add extros so that they can run the track looser?

Track tension changes when you add a rider to the sled & the rear axle drops reducing tension. A track is too tight only when you have "rolling resistance" from track tension. The void created by cutting the rails also reduces efficiency as the track attempts to follow the driver making an inefficient loop. Many installing Avids are wasting their money IMO. Don't confuse lack of lubrication in the snow for a tight track. Some "freeze dried" snow has low moisture & consequently low lubrication even with scratchers down.

Seems to me that the new center extro on 163 Dragons is the best of both worlds for a long track. Never once did my track ratchet under load last year & only a couple of times braking when the track was too loose. (Kind of an early warning system) The reason the center extro is less effective braking is primarily a function of the smaller size of the extro tooth vs the larger track window. The tooth is closer to the front of the track window so it seems to stop ratcheting under load, but farther from the window in the rear so it can ratchet braking in hard snow. (Extro measures 1" vs track window 1.775".)

Extro's are almost like an "Urban Legend" that feeds on itself. There may be some justification for extro's on high HP sleds with longer tracks but...has anyone but the factories done adequate testing to know for certain? Just maybe Polaris has done their homework on this one?

Not trying to say that extro's are bad for everyone but ask the question-are they right for your application?

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Ron, did you have any ice build up issues with that centre driver at all. I have freinds who say that was a huge issue.

The "rolling resistance" of the track is the issue for me and my 08 D8. When set to Polaris specs (by the dealer), the sled will not even roll off the deck ramp by itself. You have to pull it off. I have loosened off the tension slightly and then it will ratchet. My 2004 Edge 800 did not have this issue. Why? The current setup that Polaris uses with three drivers did not work at all for me. I experienced ice build up from the very first ride and had to remove the center driver on my 08 D8 155.(Polaris decision to take off and my machine came stock with three drivers!!!) What a sound this makes as well when iced up!!! Therefore, how do you decrease the rolling resistance and ratcheting without going to Avid drivers.

srosscojw said:

Ron, did you have any ice build up issues with that centre driver at all. I have freinds who say that was a huge issue.

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No never had ice build up but my sled goes in to thaw after nearly every ride. I saw the posts on ice build up last year too, don't know that it was a huge issue. Ugly when it happened, maybe just the right combo of wet heavy snow then turning to freezing temps??? Maybe a gradual build up???

Here is my take on it... IMO....

Ski Doo, Arctic Cat, Yamaha and now Polaris, on the Factory installed drivers on the Race sleds all run COMBO drivers (different than a true extrovert driver)

There is a difference between an "EXTROVERT" driver and a "COMBO" driver

A combo driver [eg Avid] drives from both the involute "nubs" on the inside of the track and the windows of the the track .... it does not rely on the "teeth" of the extro-portion of this "combo" unless you start to ratchet. A TRUE extrovert does not drive at all from the involute nubs on the inside of the track (eg the center driver on a dragon).

Some stuff I've learned from the diff engineers in the sled world.

Looser tracks allow the paddles to fold over easier... a part of the equation that most dont think of and is the MAIN reason why (I think) Jack Struthers says that a tight track works better than a loose one...it hooks up better, expecially in more setup conditions like on a track or hill-drags, or spring time climbing (or our average Sierra cement). He has done extensive testing with track tension.

The people with Extrovert (AKA combo) drivers seem to want to run the track real loose and feel it frees up HP...a loose track allows for distortion of the track (the track "wrinkles" and allows the paddle to lay over a bit) as it leaves the driver and makes the track more suceptable to "stabbing"... With the extros, I dont look at them as a way to allow a track to be run looser... I look at it as a prevention of ratcheting in the high-demand situations.

I think the "combo" drivers are the best option, but run almost as tight as the stock drivers AND run the more slippery hyperfax as well as popping back on some idlers for spring conditions as well.

Combo drivers, IMO, are mandatory on high hp sleds... BUT they should be run at the correct, not loose, tension... similar to normal tracks/stock-drivers.

When they are running normally, not ratcheting, the teeth of the combo are not even contacting the track or the clips and only drive from the involute portion on the inside of the track.

The first of the M-series cats had poor geometry that tightended up the track when it worked thru the travel and caused all kinds of problems that was the big factory push to factory "combo" drivers and the one that gave the extros and stabbing a bad rap.

The Polaris Race sleds are taking much more punishment on the circuit than almost any cliff-dropping Mountain rider will put on thiers... all with Twin Combo Drivers, shortened rail tips and PROPER TENSION...

When a dragon does start to ratchet, with the center extro... you dont have much "tooth engagement" into the track to transfer power to the track (only 4 or 5 teeth on a non-clipped window) and, this puts a lot of load on the center of the fiberglass rods in the middle of the track... I've seen 2 dragon tracks from last year running turbos that have multiple broken fiberglass rods that go thru the rubber on the track, visually aparent. If you ratchect a dragon... you are putting a lot of stress on the track and reinforcing rods. Only the 163" models got the center driver last year, I'm curious to see the results this year as they have more wide spread use.

The heavy, wet coastal snow or spring cond seem to stick more than the Rocky Mtn. pow...

Ron said:

No never had ice build up but my sled goes in to thaw after nearly every ride. I saw the posts on ice build up last year too, don't know that it was a huge issue. Ugly when it happened, maybe just the right combo of wet heavy snow then turning to freezing temps??? Maybe a gradual build up???

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gerrman said:

The "rolling resistance" of the track is the issue for me and my 08 D8. When set to Polaris specs (by the dealer), the sled will not even roll off the deck ramp by itself. You have to pull it off. I have loosened off the tension slightly and then it will ratchet. My 2004 Edge 800 did not have this issue. Why? The current setup that Polaris uses with three drivers did not work at all for me. I experienced ice build up from the very first ride and had to remove the center driver on my 08 D8 155.(Polaris decision to take off and my machine came stock with three drivers!!!) What a sound this makes as well when iced up!!! Therefore, how do you decrease the rolling resistance and ratcheting without going to Avid drivers.

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Rider weight changes track tension so in my definition of rolling resistance-it is in the snow with the rider on the sled. (When you sit on the sled the rear axle drops decreasing track tension.) Let off the throttle-does the sled coast or encounter resistance from a track that is too tight? With the engine braking from the driven this is more difficult to "feel" on some sleds.

Why did some have the "ice" issue and many/most others did not? Does a loose track contribute to ice build up on the center driver? Is it snow conditions? Polaris didn't change the design again this year and were aware of complaints. Why did Polaris use a center extro instead of the combo on the race sled? Not because of cost & not because they are stupid, IMO. They fixed the headlight/snow injestion issue, much more obscure so one has to wonder. If the Polaris center extro has an icing issue then why won't a combo Avid have the same snow build up on the extro?
At this point, there are more questions than answers. Why doesn't Carl's Cycle put extro's on big bore long tracks or hill climber mods? Why did some have an icing problem yet the vast majority didn't? (We all get a month or two of coastal snow conditions in the spring.) If the center extro stops ratcheting under power but not always when braking-is that bad? Did anyone running the 08 center extro (correct track tension) ratchet under power?
We all have our opinions but who is correct????

run a track to stock tension specs, if you dont run hiperfax's then you can drill a small countersink in your standard hyfax to hold snow and help lubricate the clips. My turbo has rails cut and 10T extros and no skid setback, havent had a track stabbing issue yet, my 1200 is the same way with 9T extros but with an anti stab kit just for peace of mind I guess. Might put one on the turbo just to help with rolling resistance.

Ron said:

Rider weight changes track tension so in my definition of rolling resistance-it is in the snow with the rider on the sled. (When you sit on the sled the rear axle drops decreasing track tension.) Let off the throttle-does the sled coast or encounter resistance from a track that is too tight? With the engine braking from the driven this is more difficult to "feel" on some sleds.

Why did some have the "ice" issue and many/most others did not? Does a loose track contribute to ice build up on the center driver? Is it snow conditions? Polaris didn't change the design again this year and were aware of complaints. Why did Polaris use a center extro instead of the combo on the race sled? Not because of cost & not because they are stupid, IMO. They fixed the headlight/snow injestion issue, much more obscure so one has to wonder. If the Polaris center extro has an icing issue then why won't a combo Avid have the same snow build up on the extro?
At this point, there are more questions than answers. Why doesn't Carl's Cycle put extro's on big bore long tracks or hill climber mods? Why did some have an icing problem yet the vast majority didn't? (We all get a month or two of coastal snow conditions in the spring.) If the center extro stops ratcheting under power but not always when braking-is that bad? Did anyone running the 08 center extro (correct track tension) ratchet under power?
We all have our opinions but who is correct????

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Two points to make. First the "ice" issue. Since my machine is a 155" and c/w a tunnel cooler, IMO this is the culprit. The combination of heat(cooling) when riding and when stopped for a period of time(snow and water freezing on the drivers) because of the cooler. The 163" do not have the cooler and to the best of my knowledge no ice problem. Therefore I am removing the cooler with an HRP kit before this season starts.

Second point. To help with the potenial stabbing problem of cutting the rails. I am setting the suspension back slightly(installing a different and longer track), therefore I will not have to trim the rails as much for the driver change(maintain more curve). As well, I purchased the "on sale" Holtz rear suspension so I can install this at the same time. Looking forward to a great season!!! my .02

gerrman said:

Two points to make. First the "ice" issue. Since my machine is a 155" and c/w a tunnel cooler, IMO this is the culprit. The combination of heat(cooling) when riding and when stopped for a period of time(snow and water freezing on the drivers) because of the cooler. The 163" do not have the cooler and to the best of my knowledge no ice problem. Therefore I am removing the cooler with an HRP kit before this season starts.

Second point. To help with the potenial stabbing problem of cutting the rails. I am setting the suspension back slightly(installing a different and longer track), therefore I will not have to trim the rails as much for the driver change(maintain more curve). As well, I purchased the "on sale" Holtz rear suspension so I can install this at the same time. Looking forward to a great season!!! my .02

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A slight setback is the best way to go but isnt always feasable for most people and what they are trying to acheive. Lessens approach angle, drivers now clear rail tips, but depending on how much you go back you will start to loose transfer and the sled will start to get more nose heavy.

Actually Polaris race sleds run 2 combo drivers similar to the Cats..
The center extro's were reserved for the Dragons.

Pic of 2008 Polaris 600 Race IQ... part #25... the assembly between the Twin combo drivers is the slipper clutch assembly that connects the two drivers to the driveshaft [instead of using a slipper gear in the chaincase]



The Icing problem, IMO, is because the 3 drivers do not have much space between them...maybe 2 inches (cant measure as I'm far from home right now). A little ice can bridge the distance beween the outside and the center driver much easier than twin drivers that are spaced further away... again, IMO. This larger distance between drivers in a twin-combo setup is the reason I believe that the Avid combos will not have an icing problem... I have never even heard a rumor of an 8" wide "slug" of ice forming between the drivers.

I'm running twin Avid Combos on my sled again this year with STOCK Polaris tension and Hyperfax... I'm probably going to run the 2.5" 2.86" pitch Camo extreme this year and I'll post up some results and pix in December.

At this point, there are more questions than answers. Why doesn't Carl's Cycle put extro's on big bore long tracks or hill climber mods? Jack never believed in Combo/extros... I dont know how much testing he has done with extros run on identical sleds with varying amounts of tension or even an extro setup with stock or near-stock tension.... Chris may be able to shed some light here..... Why did some have an icing problem yet the vast majority didn't? Different snow conditions and ambient air temp combos maybe???(We all get a month or two of coastal snow conditions in the spring.) If the center extro stops ratcheting under power but not always when braking-is that bad? You can ratchet while breaking if your track is hooking up, NO? Did anyone running the 08 center extro (correct track tension) ratchet under power? The turbo sleds above sure did... enough to break the track rods
We all have our opinions but who is correct???? I've learned a lot from Struthers/Carls and others on the topic of tension.... I hope to learn much more... ride em and enjoy em....

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Ron, What you running for skis and engine mods when all is said and done?

Here is a pic of the 2008/9 RMK Dragon Drive shaft... the spacing between the drivers is pretty close.